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Author Topic: JUSTICE LEAGUE  (Read 4982 times)
Perry
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« on: January 17, 2014, 02:33:02 PM »

There is one thing that I, as a non-regular buyer of DC comics, just don't understand ... but let's step back a minute.

DC sales on books, other than those with a bat or a green ring, were starting to slide pretty badly, so DC came up with this *great plan to totally reset their universe back to square one. Now me, again, being one that was not into buying much DC comics, thought this was a FANTASTIC idea as it would allow me to finally step into this DC world in more depth than I had ever dreamed possible. I also know I was not alone in that feeling, even though most current DC fans were kinda pissed about the whole thing.

Unfortunately, after a few months (or even the first month for some titles) of buying lots of titles about lots of characters I have always been interested in, I realized how poorly planned this reset was and more to the point how poorly the entire plan was executed. There were just some horrible books out there and editorial had placed too many non-talented people into too many titles.

So sadly, after trying about 28 or so DC titles, after a year or two I was once again back down to only two. And more sad still is the two I was down to were books that were not effected by the reset anyway. Essentially, DC lost me.
 Undecided

But now, I have been dipping my toes back into the DC worlds again, not buying anything, but reading a friends copies or "Byrne Stealing" when I get to the LCS and I have noticed one thing that really bugs me. Much like the story in the newest issue of ACTION COMICS (that I posted a question or to on in another thread), it appears DC has started to tell stories they should not yet be telling.

This new (NU) DC is only 2 years old. Just over technically. But DC seems to be telling stories like the characters have been around for 80 years again. The story in Action is a perfect example of this. As we are only two years in, we should still be reading about Clark and his job as a reporter (or blogger ... or whatever he is) and learning about his relationships with people he has just met. Relatively speaking we should still be learning about this alien. Again, we just met him 26 issues ago!

I fear what DC has now done, is take this new universe and just forgot the just reset the damn thing. We are getting stories that could just have easily been written in 2008 instead of the early years of these characters.

Yes, there are some exceptions, like GREEN ARROW (A great book everyone should be reading), and I point to that book NOT because he is now young, but because the story there is still showing us who this guy is. This story reads just like this character is new. The same should be going on with Superman and all the other DC characters that were reset. Not telling us stories that seem like the character has been around forever.

Perhaps there are other books like GREEN ARROW out there that DC is producing, but I have not ran across them. All I have seen is the reverse. Characters or stories that seem like they have been around a lot longer than two freakin' years!!!! In fact, (JLA spoilers ahead) I just saw HERE that Lex Luther, this evil man we JUST MET about 2 years ago, is now going to lead a team of heroes? Are you kidding me? That would be like Dr. Doom becoming a member of the Fantastic four during the time the Inhumans were introduced.
 Angry

Spoilers still ahead ...  Grin ... yes, we've had Luther as President, but how many years of story telling did that take for that to happen. Why are they jumping past the point of introductions and telling stories they should not yet be telling?
 Angry

Okay, enough of my coffee rant. sorry for any words that are misspelled, sentences that don't make sense or any other problem you may see, I am just on a roll. AHHHH, Time for a beer!!!
 Grin

 
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Avatar mash-up is from Ross Pearsall... and of course those that own the original characters Smiley
Jimmy T
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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2014, 03:23:49 PM »

This notion that the reboot was unnecessary, I believe, was more than evident after the first year.

Morrison was still doing his revolutionary take on Superman (which, hardly seems to matter any more, since they just tell 'current' tales, as if we have already explored all that it was during the 5 years in which he first appeared).

Wonder Woman had a fantastic redressing, and still is amazing-all within her own title. Her and her JL counterpart seemed worlds apart in interpretation.

Flash has been a very decent commercial success.

Batman & GL were simply continuations of their prior success. In fact, the ire and the police attention to "Take down the Bat" as evidenced in Detective and Batman #1s had no long faded by issues 12.

Teen Titans was a mess of 'what the hell is this?'

And many titles of big restarts, new intros, were fading fast under brand new headlining teams, and poor talent at that.

It easy easily asked, "could this all have been served just as well pre-Flashpoint?"

The answer turns out to be a resounding yes. However, you wouldn't have been able to make Superman 'accessible' to newer generations until you put him in high collared battle armor and a Bieber hair cut, and oh yeah,REVERSING HIS MARRIAGE STATUS.

So, there ya go. I almost firmly believe that the reboot was to make him single again. What other true point did it serve? Teen Titans reboot referred to the prior Titans books (so that continuity still happened), yet those lines were removed from the TT trades. Same with Justice League, changes were made between monthlies and the trades.  Did they do well in making the Titans an utter mess? By erasing truly beloved, and well, ancient characters in Wally West, Donna Troy, or jiggering Cyclops, Beast Boy, Martian Manhunter, or further confusing Hawkman's origin?

DC helped me to 'mentally' just look at a story and accept it as 'read it here and now...and that's all you have to concern yourself with.'

It's like an episode of Seinfeld, or Big Bang Theory. All that matters is what is happening within the 22 minutes that you are watching. Sure, there is some history, or in-jokes that the long reader may get more than the new viewer, but it won't hurt the experience, nor matter and carry over to when you watch the new tabla rasa (sp) next week for your enjoyment. It's because of DC that I started to read Spider-man again. "eh, to hell with it, I want to read a comic with Spider-man in it. Marriage changes be damned! I want wallopin' websnappers and thwip!"

Heck, you want another conversation that feeds into comics only involving the here and now? Lets look at Marvel slapping a #1 on a title every 11 months.
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Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2014, 04:20:01 PM »

This notion that the reboot was unnecessary, I believe, was more than evident after the first year.

And I disagree. Sorry, but you are coming at this from the standpoint of the DC fan. The same group of DC fans that allowed the sales to dip so poorly on 99% of DC titles, that they had to pull out this to try and obtain a "shock". Now true, it was DC and their lack of obtaining quality writers which resulted in the lack of quality stories that originated the fans leaving, but the end solution was a sound one.

The purpose of the relaunch was to try and get MORE readers to the DC universe. It worked. What failed was the execution.

The ONLY reason I picked up the 25 or 28 books I did from DC was due to my hope that I could come into this universe from the beginning and if the stories were good, not only would all the DC fans that moan about the relaunch be singing different tunes, but DC wuld have had more people buying their books. People like me that JUMPED at the chance of this reset.

Morrison was still doing his revolutionary take on Superman (which, hardly seems to matter any more, since they just tell 'current' tales, as if we have already explored all that it was during the 5 years in which he first appeared).

Now why can't you understand that point in the Action thread I posted? (EDIT - I now see why. I din't really say shit in that thread I started  Grin Sorry about that  Smiley ... anyway ... let's continue ...) That is exactly why I was confused as to why DC is telling that story. Where is the 2 year Superman stories?

... "could this all have been served just as well pre-Flashpoint?" The answer turns out to be a resounding yes. However, you wouldn't have been able to make Superman 'accessible' to newer generations until you put him in high collared battle armor and a Bieber hair cut, and oh yeah,REVERSING HIS MARRIAGE STATUS.

Well "A", doing this PreFlashpoint would have not brought any of the new buyers they were trying to obtain inside the fold, so ... why would they. And "B", The misuse of their own properties is one of the reasons why this relaunch did fail, no doubt about it, but it was also the horrible damn stories that made people run away. At the onset buyers came. DC had them. DC had a ton of new buyers and they lost them.

It's because of DC that I started to read Spider-man again.


Why would DC have anything to do with that? Regardless of what one company is doing or not doing you should read stories that you want, that interest you. You always seem to have this DC OR Marvel thought about comics. Read what you like, man. Does it really matter who publishes it?
 Smiley

Heck, you want another conversation that feeds into comics only involving the here and now? Lets look at Marvel slapping a #1 on a title every 11 months.

Yes, as they should be. Why wouldn't a company restart at number one every time a new team comes on? It is a new storyline and more importantly it pulls in a lot of money for a company who's sole reason to exist is to make money ... as EVERY companys purpose is.

In fact, why are comics not numbered 1-6, 1-12 or 1-11, however long the writers arc will be, and then reset to number 1 again? I am not nor ever have been a number whore. Who gives a rat turd if my comic box goes from :
FF V1 1-89
FF V2 1-23
FF V3 113-300
to
FF V4 1-25

Who cares? Would the stories be ANY different if the issues were numbered 1-326? Really? Any difference? No.

Anyway ... getting way off topic ...

Still no reason for DC to tell these stories without first involving the characters in stories that would take place early in the characters lives. All I'm saying.
 Grin

And EDIT 2 (Edit 1 is in the comments  Grin) - Not saying that every DC comic is crap. I want that to be clear. I have nothing against DC other than the way this relaunch was handled and they way some of their editors ... anyway.
 Grin
Dc does indeed have some good books out there, like Jimmy mentioned. Like WONDER WOMAN and GREEN ARROW and I am sure there are others that I am just not familiar with. But as a whole, they really let me and tons of other new and old fans down with this relaunch, just for totally different reasons.
 Smiley
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 04:27:52 PM by Perry » Logged

Avatar mash-up is from Ross Pearsall... and of course those that own the original characters Smiley
Jimmy T
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2014, 05:48:56 PM »

This notion that the reboot was unnecessary, I believe, was more than evident after the first year.

And I disagree. Sorry, but you are coming at this from the standpoint of the DC fan. The same group of DC fans that allowed the sales to dip so poorly on 99% of DC titles, that they had to pull out this to try and obtain a "shock". Now true, it was DC and their lack of obtaining quality writers which resulted in the lack of quality stories that originated the fans leaving, but the end solution was a sound one.

The purpose of the relaunch was to try and get MORE readers to the DC universe. It worked. What failed was the execution.

I truly feel like we are arguing about which streets to get to the same destination with this.  Wink

Was SOMETHING necessary to bring in new fans? Shu' betcha! Could you have just done the Marvel trope and rebranded/restarted everything to attract new attention? Sure. Heck, look back to One Year Later-which I believed to have been a great rebranding for the DC line, shuffled some stuff, and brought new attention to the books.

Quote
... "could this all have been served just as well pre-Flashpoint?" The answer turns out to be a resounding yes. However, you wouldn't have been able to make Superman 'accessible' to newer generations until you put him in high collared battle armor and a Bieber hair cut, and oh yeah,REVERSING HIS MARRIAGE STATUS.

Well "A", doing this PreFlashpoint would have not brought any of the new buyers they were trying to obtain inside the fold, so ... why would they. And "B", The misuse of their own properties is one of the reasons why this relaunch did fail, no doubt about it, but it was also the horrible damn stories that made people run away. At the onset buyers came. DC had them. DC had a ton of new buyers and they lost them.

No arguments there!!

Quote
It's because of DC that I started to read Spider-man again.


Why would DC have anything to do with that? Regardless of what one company is doing or not doing you should read stories that you want, that interest you. You always seem to have this DC OR Marvel thought about comics. Read what you like, man. Does it really matter who publishes it?
 Smiley

Took me outta context there, Perry. I explained how I could go back to any Spider-man title (or, if you wish clarification) ANY title that had previously angered me, disappointed me, or been utter dreck. If you focus purely on what is in front of you, and leave it the editors and those that wish to streamline continuity, then you can be happy reading anything. There was no editorial decision by DC that spurned me into now buying into Marvel editorial. It was simply the actions of what was happening across all of (my) comicdom.

A defeatist attitude, perhaps, but it has led to increased enjoyment, as well as me trying out a few more books again.

Quote
Heck, you want another conversation that feeds into comics only involving the here and now? Lets look at Marvel slapping a #1 on a title every 11 months.

Yes, as they should be. Why wouldn't a company restart at number one every time a new team comes on? It is a new storyline and more importantly it pulls in a lot of money for a company who's sole reason to exist is to make money ... as EVERY companys purpose is.

In fact, why are comics not numbered 1-6, 1-12 or 1-11, however long the writers arc will be, and then reset to number 1 again? I am not nor ever have been a number whore. Who gives a rat turd if my comic box goes from :
FF V1 1-89
FF V2 1-23
FF V3 113-300
to
FF V4 1-25

Who cares? Would the stories be ANY different if the issues were numbered 1-326? Really? Any difference? No.

I look at it more as shining that turd up to call it gold, is all. Smiley

Sure, it works from a business standpoint; #1's equal numbers bumps, and then there is always attrition within the first 6-12 months. We've seen enough of those comics analysis charts to know that. To me, it looks like a false inflation of a brand; how long will it truly be able to sustain numbers if you just keep giving the same product in different boxes?

If you like, you'll read it. No doubt. However....what else do all the new #1's also bring? INCREASED PRICE on your first issue. Smart on their part. Doesn't mean I'll follow, especially if I'll look at what I need to be spending on, and what I should cut back on.

Anyway ... getting way off topic ...

Quote
Still no reason for DC to tell these stories without first involving the characters in stories that would take place early in the characters lives. All I'm saying.
 Grin

Fair enough!  Cheesy

Quote
Dc does indeed have some good books out there, like Jimmy mentioned. Like WONDER WOMAN and GREEN ARROW and I am sure there are others that I am just not familiar with. But as a whole, they really let me and tons of other new and old fans down with this relaunch, just for totally different reasons.
 Smiley

Totally agreed!
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Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2014, 07:02:16 PM »

We we got all that out in relative nice fashion.  Grin I do still have ... well ...

I look at it more as shining that turd up to call it gold, is all. Smiley

Sure, it works from a business standpoint; #1's equal numbers bumps, and then there is always attrition within the first 6-12 months. We've seen enough of those comics analysis charts to know that.

But the thing is, the books are doing that regardless. Whether they reset the numbering or not, book sales go down. Why not, in-between each fall, renumber and get that boost in sales. I keep hearing, not from you, that every time they re-number, the sales just fall right back to where they were. Well, yes, okay, that is true, but Marvel/DC (whomever) got an extra 1000,000 in sales before that title fell back to where it was prior.

To me, if I am selling ... anything, and I can boost sales from 20K to 100K for just one month, I'm taking it. That's why I don't blame Marvel/DC (or whomever  Grin) in doing just that. In-fact, I commend them on it.
 Smiley

It's just like "event fatigue". You know where you hear that phrase the most? Here on the internet. You know where you don't see that it is really happening? In the sales. All these people screaming that they are so over events. They are "done". Yet those damn sales keep on going up and as long as they are, why should Marvel/DC (or ...  Grin) stop doing it?

Now true, those companies, especially Marvel, have a sneaky way of making shop owners buy way too many copies of those damn events, but those shop owners will learn soon enough (like when their shop closes) that buying more than you can possibly sell is NOT good practice, regardless of what Marvel promises you.
 Wink
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Jimmy T
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« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2014, 04:27:46 PM »

To me, if I am selling ... anything, and I can boost sales from 20K to 100K for just one month, I'm taking it. That's why I don't blame Marvel/DC (or whomever  Grin) in doing just that. In-fact, I commend them on it.
 Smiley

It's just like "event fatigue". You know where you hear that phrase the most? Here on the internet. You know where you don't see that it is really happening? In the sales. All these people screaming that they are so over events. They are "done". Yet those damn sales keep on going up and as long as they are, why should Marvel/DC (or ...  Grin) stop doing it?


I forgot my last personal note to this:

I understand completely why they do them, and their need (although, they'll keep trying to pass that same turd on Cheesy ).  I won't necessarily commend them, but that's really not here nor there. It's business, they'll do business practices, which are only about money and sales. My personal attitude towards how they do that is not anything to matters to anyone; anywhere.

But I'll sometimes look at the relaunch/renumbering as a perfect area to WALK away. Cheesy

So, I may complain about it, but I will prove it with (or without!) my hard-earned dollar too.
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Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
Just an old man
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« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2014, 04:36:17 PM »

Oh you bet. Well said ... I get it  Smiley

But I'll sometimes look at the relaunch/renumbering as a perfect area to WALK away. Cheesy

Especially that part.

Actually, I also find it always pulls me away from buying the last few issues of the series that is getting ready to get the renumbering. Now I won't do it with Superior/Amazing ... and I honestly can't remember a title that I have done this with, but I have certainly dropped titles 2 to 4 issues prior to their ending JUST because of the upcoming renumbering.

But, in all fairness, I tend to do that with any title that has been announced as "canceled" as well. As I am not a "collector", I just jump ship and try to sell the issues I have, hoping some people don't know of the cancellation.
 Undecided
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Perry
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2014, 01:34:38 AM »

Wondering if I should drop my Spider-Books, yes before the event I have been excited for, and pick up this title. I would like a little more DC (at 3 right now) and Slott is turning into Slott again for me and the PAD book ... well ... let's just say if issue #2 doesn't rebound for me I may as well cut it now.
 Undecided

Just curious though. May keep the Spiders, especially with Spider-Woman right around the corner, but I am kinda liking the idea of reading about this "Virus" in the league also
 Smiley
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