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Author Topic: SPIDER-MAN: HOMECOMING  (Read 909 times)
Jimmy T
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2017, 08:02:18 PM »

Okay, I've been working on this...and I'm not done...here goes...

Did Spider-man look great on film? Oh hell yeah!!


The Vulture was great. So very well done. Michael Keaton simply sold it, stole the scene every time he was there, and I love the look of the villain; his flight suit, the ‘ruffles’ of plumage around his neck with the flight jacket; great design!! Magnificent villain, and the car scene, with the ‘dad talk’, along with the music, was so damned chilling. Superb.

The bigger issues I have is when I’m HOOD-WINKED. The WOOL PULLED OVER MY EYES. The matters of FAKE OUT. PULLING A FAST ONE. These are not angry shouts; I’m merely trying to illuminate the axioms used when the writing tried to pull a ‘Gotcha!’ moment. To this, I speak of Liz Allan being the Vulture’s daughter. Now, what a moment when Peter comes to the door, and Toomes opens it. Oh man! I thought he got there ahead of Peter and was going to make it hell on him! NO! HaHA! GOTCHA!!! He’s her father.

Now, I don't’ want to harp about canon from comics, that it has to be absolutely the same. This, however, feels like a cheat to me. Toomes is not Liz’s father. Considering both characters’s showed up by the 4th issue of Amazing Spider-man; it’s rather well established. Is this me being anal? Perhaps. But there are many things you could keep changing in small increments until it no longer resembles the original. That’s how you get Catwoman.

Also the quick wink at the end that the uber rebel ‘Michelle’ actually goes by MJ...is that her first year at school? How does ano one actually know? Did she play so far away from all that she wouldn’t have single friend? Sure, I guess. But again, it’s a ‘HA-GOTCHA!’ moment that’s a big sneak. Much like the end of Dark Knight Returns, with our presumptive hero in training having the middle name ‘Robin’, this moment is a bait and switch to bring MJ into the fold as the true girlfriend of Peter. Although, again, its very well established that MJ is ‘Mary Jane.’ Was this done to get a rise out of people? A way to scoop fans, or a way to tell them to shut up, yes, we put MJ in the movies, chill out? I find it one part lazy, maybe a small part insulting, and another part lame.

What I find...missing is the actual comic version of Peter Parker. Mind you; this character is more based off the ‘Ultimate Spider-man’ comic version, who I refer to as Petey Parker, because that kid is a twerp. Perhaps that is something more for this generation, so maybe I’m just missing something.

However, our movie-Petey is missing considerably 2 things: The responsibility of his power because of the guilt he holds. That’s a HUGE thing of the mythos; Peter is constantly consumed over his Uncle Ben’s death. It is always in his mind. Movie Petey does not have that, doesn’t reference that (and no, I didn’t want an origin scene again!!!), but also doesn’t use that to show the urge behind being Spider-man. Here, Petey does it alot because its fun, its cool, and he’s chasing hero worship. You could say that is what led him to trouble in the first place, but with Uncle Ben already dead, he would be beyond that.

Also, comics Peter is bereft of an adult figure. That leads our hero to make some dumb choices, and curse his circumstances because he can’t just be a teen. He has to go out and stop the Vulture/Dr. Octopus/Green Goblin, because if he doesn’t, someone elses’ uncle may die. So, no parties for Peter. The use of Tony Stark as that adult figure that tries to steer Peter away is not anything like my comics Peter. And yes, I”ll say ‘my’ here, because this is more of an analysis of the character, and not a direct cut or slight of the movie. I just find it to be a fundamental difference, and as I’ve said, Spider-man is a bit of a pedestal hero for me, so to be so very different from the character’s ethos is jarring to me. Peter lost his mentor, his father figure. To have a mentor/father figure replace Uncle Ben in his thoughts is so very different. But again, this is the movie, not the comics.

I don’t care for the super Spidey suit he has the entirety of the movie. He was given it, it’s amazingly powerful, and for the most part, he could not have done most of what he did during the rising action of the movie without it. That, to me, takes away from the character. For the Tobey Maguire Spidey to make that suit as he did as a late highschooler/early college guy requires a quick wink to the crowd that said ‘yeah, we now it’s not possible, but hey, that’s the comic part of it. Love it people!’ So, for Holland Spidey to just have a gift suit, which is the only way he could accomplish most of what he did and be instrumental throughout the film, it feels like a loss of accomplishment of what young comics Peter Parker did for himself.



And no, I"m not done.....at all....
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Jimmy T since 2001
Jimmy T
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« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2017, 07:00:07 AM »

and more...

Tom Holland is certainly charismatic and fun in his role. His anxious voice hits all the worry and fear a young man would have. It’s actually refreshing to have a hero whose voice isn’t a low octave chewing grating sound (Yes Arrow show, I’m looking at you for this! Supernatural too! And Legion!). I had a good time watching his Spider-man bounce all around doing his thing (and honestly, most of his appearances were CGI cartoons, right?). When I sat back some, ...the babbling did get to me a bit. Just a bit. But that’s a personal thing, not a movie fault...but close to being a fault.

It bothered me that he didn’t call May ‘aunt.’ As I recall, Stark said ‘make a movie for your sexy aunt’ in the limo, and after that...Petey never refers to her as Aunt May. So, either movie wants you to assume that you know all about Spider-man lore….or it’s all new ground. In that case, who is May to Petey? Why does he call his mom by her name? Or, why does he live with his aunt instead? Etc etc. Quibbles perhaps, but in actuality, I thought their familial relationship was a bit poor. Oh, Holland and Tomei did have some great scenes together.  But too often, she was the character in the other room Petey hid from, or worked around. The best parts of them together is her finally getting mad at Petey, then having him ‘come clean’ about getting let go by Stark. A lie of omission, but it was a truth, Petey was broken, and Aunt May was there to help bring him up again. Also, the homecoming montage was good. But it was such a weird and jarring thing for everyone to refer to his sexy aunt.

The high school angle...again, more background elements to me. This could have been college. There could have been no school. What Garfield’s Amazing Spider-man did better was show how alone and outside of everyone his Peter was in school. I don’t get that feeling here. Why? For one, Petey has a best friend. Again, more of an Ultimate comics element, as original comics Peter has no true high school friend. See, that loner thing was very prevalent. Here, Peter isn’t alone. He’s “bullied” by some cyber/nerd bully, but there is no social or personal responses by Peter at all to the bullying. Flash is more a pest than a jerk, and more rude than a bully. It simply doesn’t work at here.

There is no weight to the changes that comes over Peter while in school; so he leaves band or chess club or all other school activities-no teachers try to haul him in; May doesn’t really get news of it, or try to address it. The school angle has no weight to it, and to me, doesn’t matter when watching the movie. It’s essentially a prop. It doesn’t create a part of his life he has to try and balance with being Spider-man.

By the way, the ending scenes with the Vulture are essentially a lift of the battle against Green Goblin ending in Amazing Spider-man 40. Maybe an inadvertent homage, or I’m reading too much into it, but I really dug the movie visual. I was totally expecting Toomes to develop some amnesia after that like Osborn did after that comics fight!!

This is a good movie. It truly is. I had a good time watching it, if you can believe me. I’m just overly critical. Is it the best MU movie? The best superhero movie ever? No. It’s not even the best one this year. But it’s really great. It’s just the image of ‘my’ Spider-man wasn’t the same influence that shaped this one. Call that a generational thing.

*Footnote 1-sorry the two parts are all over the place. I meant to edit it together more cohesively, and I may still do that and put it on facebook
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Jimmy T since 2001
Jimmy T
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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2017, 07:08:07 AM »

Also....!  Cheesy

Also, how awful is it that Liz throws that damned huge party, she rather likes Peter, but doesn’t tell him until the day of? And wouldn’t have invited Peter until knowing he could bring Spider-man? How has neither him nor Ned heard of this big party? Ned is on the Academic team as well, and doesn’t know about it? Wasn’t invited either before this moment, even though there are 100 people already there? Including Michelle? (okay, she could have just showed up ironically and hung out, without anyone have the guts to toss her out. She’s that type of persona). Still, Liz...you kinda suck at that point.
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Jimmy T since 2001
Mitch
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2017, 11:46:24 AM »


However, our movie-Petey is missing considerably 2 things: The responsibility of his power because of the guilt he holds. That’s a HUGE thing of the mythos; Peter is constantly consumed over his Uncle Ben’s death. It is always in his mind. Movie Petey does not have that, doesn’t reference that (and no, I didn’t want an origin scene again!!!), but also doesn’t use that to show the urge behind being Spider-man. Here, Petey does it alot because its fun, its cool, and he’s chasing hero worship. You could say that is what led him to trouble in the first place, but with Uncle Ben already dead, he would be beyond that.

Excellent point Jimmy T.  I agree.  
Not sure this needs a spoiler box, but anyway....  Yes, unending, racking guilt over Ben, Gwen, etc. is not only a defining character trait but the central impetus for why he does what he does.

Just some food for thought though...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Uncle Ben ever being mentioned.  As difficult almost impossible as it is for me to conceive of a Spider-Man without an Uncle Ben (after all, his death has as much credit in the creation of our hero as the spider bite) it is possible that there may not be an Uncle Ben.  

Consider this possiblity:  In this current version of the film MU, Richard Parker leaves his young son in the hands of his younger, single, never-married sister for safe keeping.  Peter becomes Spider-Man for all of the reasons we've seen in this movie.  Although obviously already motivated to risk life and limb to do the right thing, perhaps he gets too cocky, or jaded, or whatever and the powers-that-be may decide to allow Aunt May to die in similar fashion to bring about his defining guilt complex.

Anyway, Uncle Ben is most probably part of Peter's "all she's been through" line.  However, still fun to speculate at this point.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 11:49:52 AM by Mitch » Logged

"I need a day when there aren't twenty crises to deal with, but I don't see that coming any time soon."  - Iron Man (Captain America #29)
Jimmy T
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2017, 07:23:56 PM »


Just some food for thought though...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Uncle Ben ever being mentioned.  As difficult almost impossible as it is for me to conceive of a Spider-Man without an Uncle Ben (after all, his death has as much credit in the creation of our hero as the spider bite) it is possible that there may not be an Uncle Ben.  

Consider this possiblity:  In this current version of the film MU, Richard Parker leaves his young son in the hands of his younger, single, never-married sister for safe keeping.  Peter becomes Spider-Man for all of the reasons we've seen in this movie.  Although obviously already motivated to risk life and limb to do the right thing, perhaps he gets too cocky, or jaded, or whatever and the powers-that-be may decide to allow Aunt May to die in similar fashion to bring about his defining guilt complex.

Anyway, Uncle Ben is most probably part of Peter's "all she's been through" line.  However, still fun to speculate at this point.

I just like that thinking. In all likelihood not true, but how stunning a move would that be? Right?! Cool
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Jimmy T since 2001
jedicow
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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2017, 08:35:32 PM »

Jimmy, you nailed it right on the head for me.

I also thought he relied too much on the Stark suit and then he had his buddy hack into it and not himself.  If he had hacked it, i may have felt different about it.  I also lamented that there was no mention of Uncle Ben and there was no Daily Bugle or J.Jonah Jameson. It kinda reminds me of what i said about Man of Steel; it's a good movie, it's just not a good Superman movie.  I think the same applies here for me.  Good movie...not a good Spider-Man movie
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jedicow
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2017, 08:37:23 PM »

OH OH OH...i almost forgot.....

no spidey sense?  Ned never should have been able to find out the secret becasue his spidey sense should have kicked in and warned him that Ned was there.  Same with Aunt May at the end.
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Wringer
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« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2017, 08:05:31 AM »

maybe MCU spidey sense only detect imminent threats/danger...in both cases they are known friends/family who inherently would not wish peter harm, so nothing to trigger the sense
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Mitch
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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2017, 02:28:22 PM »

OH OH OH...i almost forgot.....

no spidey sense?  Ned never should have been able to find out the secret becasue his spidey sense should have kicked in and warned him that Ned was there.  Same with Aunt May at the end.

You're right!  How did I miss that?!  Man, it has been a while since I read Spidey.

Anyway, I guess...
who needs Spidey Sense when you've got Stark Industries tech in your pajamas that can utilize global GPS to determine the villian's aftershave from orbit.  Tongue
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"I need a day when there aren't twenty crises to deal with, but I don't see that coming any time soon."  - Iron Man (Captain America #29)
Jimmy T
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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2017, 05:05:38 PM »

There were direct comments that there is no Spider Sense artWithin this movie
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Jimmy T since 2001
Mitch
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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2017, 07:14:35 PM »

Ok, here we go.  Just found this article explaining the apprarent lack of Spidey Sense.

http://collider.com/spider-man-homecoming-spidey-sense-explained/#images
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"I need a day when there aren't twenty crises to deal with, but I don't see that coming any time soon."  - Iron Man (Captain America #29)
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« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2017, 11:45:42 AM »

I want to comment more on the movie and address Jimmy T.'s thoughts further.

For right now, all I can say is that I really enjoyed it. Saw it two days ago and I'm still thinking about it. Which is very rare for any film I see in recent years. Most of the time I forget about it only hours later. Not here.

Reminded me a lot of the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon from 2008-2009 - which is still my favorite take on Parker and his world in any form of non-comics medium. .
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