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Author Topic: When heroes die  (Read 1116 times)
Mitch
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« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2017, 01:13:32 PM »

Just to clarify, Jeff:  I'm not faulting you for keeping your head above the stupidity, my friend; I agree with what you wrote.  Just saying it will be difficult for me personally to support anything associated with him.
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"I need a day when there aren't twenty crises to deal with, but I don't see that coming any time soon."  - Iron Man (Captain America #29)
Jeff
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« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2017, 02:48:07 PM »

Just to clarify, Jeff:  I'm not faulting you for keeping your head above the stupidity, my friend; I agree with what you wrote.  Just saying it will be difficult for me personally to support anything associated with him.

Totally understand and didn't mean to sound like I was faulting you for not supporting his stuff.  Nope, I have no issues with someone taking a stand on principle.
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"If I could go back in time and like tell 11 year old me that like not only do you get to go to Comic Con but you go every year.  So much so that you get greeted by Stan Lee when you show up.  And 11 year old me would be like - How did we get so fat?" - Kevin Smith
Jimmy T
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« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2017, 08:04:20 PM »

In the spirit of the conversation, I ask this:

Would you, could you (and you doesn't mean Mitch, it means all of us actually) be able to forgive a person/creator for this?

Let's take Mel Gibson. Awesome action star, pretty damned good director, gets good and drunk 10 years ago and goes off on a recorded anti-Semitic rant.

Obviously, he's done the shame circuit, the apologies, the embarassment, the self loathing, but still he was black balled for a good long time. He was made a joke, a punch line, and sure, he could have had it coming.

Now, he made some great waves as director of 'Hacksaw Ridge', and seemingly is forgiven in the press and a bit in Hollywood.

I truly am for forgiveness.

I won't lie, that since America has spiraled into foolish madness this last year with the election, I've watched Whedon become increasing agitated and angry, publicly through social media at many various points.

Then, you have to ask yourself if you can divorce the man from his creation.

Or, should you?

I was morally disgusted when paintings done by Charles Manson went for high sales numbers. Not necessarily for technique or aesthetics, but because it was by Manson.

I love Buffy. I love Angel. I love Firefly. Am I supposed to hate that for some time now? Can I realize that the work is greater than the sum of the parts? Is that "okay?"

A friend of mine just HATES Tom Cruise. That dude is batshit crazy, as he says. Can't stand him, and can't stand watching Cruise act in movies like "Tom Cruise Acts in Movies." Retroactively hates all Cruise movies still.

I call him silly on the retroactive parts, but not wanting to see further ones? Hey, put a line in the sand, it's all good.

Did Whedon say something terribly wrong in an attempt to attack others, while completely missing the point that he was wronging some innocents. OH HELLZ YEAH

Will I put him over a barrel for all time?

No. No, I won't.
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Jimmy T since 2001
Mitch
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« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2017, 03:35:48 PM »

I'm all for forgiveness too, but here is the big difference:

Obviously, he's done the shame circuit, the apologies, the embarassment, the self loathing, but still he was black balled for a good long time.

Gibson said some terrible things in a drunken rant.  And I wouldn't blame Jewish folks one bit if they decided to stop seeing his work.  But he acknowledged his wrongdoing, showed regret, sought forgiveness, and tried to make up for it.

Whedon doesn't see anything wrong with what he did (sober by all indications), did not apologize (only acknowleged that he offended the wrong people which made things worse), and would not even conceive of tolerating a difference in opinion or viewpoint.



Did Whedon say something terribly wrong in an attempt to attack others, while completely missing the point that he was wronging some innocents. OH HELLZ YEAH

Will I put him over a barrel for all time?

No. No, I won't.

With all due respect, earlier in this thread John Byrne was called out for being a pain in the neck to others in the industry, and posters called him a "piece of s**t" who deserved to be self-sodomized with a desiccated evergreen and live out his remaining time on Earth in the Hell he deserved. 

Whedon publicly made a misogynistic pedophilia joke about a group of innocent teenage cancer survivors, and all I said was I wasn't going to spend any more money on him.  (Well, I guess I called him a couple of names too, but anyway...)

Will I put him over a barrel for all time?  Well, I don't know.

Will I put him over a barrel for now?  Yes.  You bet.

I loved Firefly.  Huge fan.  I'm keeping my blu-rays.  But as long as Whedon keeps poking his pudgy little sanctimonious finger in my eye without any signs of maturity, I'm not signing any more of his checks.
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"I need a day when there aren't twenty crises to deal with, but I don't see that coming any time soon."  - Iron Man (Captain America #29)
Perry
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« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2017, 03:11:00 AM »

With all due respect, earlier in this thread John Byrne was called out for being a pain in the neck to others in the industry, and posters called him a "piece of s**t"

Yep, that was me  Smiley Stand by it. A long history of being one.

who deserved to be self-sodomized with a desiccated evergreen

I missed this one  Cheesy was that me in a drunken rage or someone else?  Grin

And also no disrespect, but while it is true Mel Gibson said something and then apologized (so did Whedon technically), how many times has he done so? Have you forgotten the message he left for an ex-girl friend that said something like
"if you get raped by a bunch of (I won't say what he said), it is your fault"
or even the sexist
"Woman should be in the home with children"

Gibson deserves no defense. None.

Just like Byrne, if you repeatedly do shit, it's just who you are.

But hey, I am not mad at ya. Not mad at anyone that takes certain things harder than others. I get it. I do. Of course you should be mad at Whedon if it hit you that way. Heck yeah. And I don't think Jimmy was saying you shouldn't (nor am I saying that is what you were saying by saying what you were just saying)
 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

 Smiley
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Jimmy T
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« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2017, 05:18:34 AM »

Nope, that was me Perry. Pine tree and all.  Cool

Mitch; all great points. No doubt.

If it needs to be said, I'll certainly say you have nothing to apologize for how you feel and what you'll do.

I'll stick by my Byrne hating, because, well, his vitriol goes back well over 12-15 years (and that is probably not even long enough to encompass his social media spewing).

Now Whedon? I won't personally apologize for anything he's said. Do I want to (eventually) give him an easy pass because I like the work he's made? Honestly, yes, but that's an unfortunate side affect of fandom.

Now, if he continues to be so embittered, and hateful instead of constructive, then yeah, I can write lots of people off. At least he hasn't had a long history of being so despicable, but it definitely bears mentioning now.

This also reminds me of a Con story I heard about a female comic writer who was sitting next to Scott Lobdell. He apparently was the worst kind of person to her-sexist, mysoginist, insulting, degrading-add in any word you want. She posted about it, it went viral, it came back to him, and he apologized, even though he didn't think anything he said was that bad.

however, yeah, I decided to not pick up anything else he'd write. But, that was easy as he's not an amazing writer, and he's in limited quantity. But I've obviously done the same.

So, I'll still see Justice League. Even though I think it'll probably still be disappointing as all get out. Why? It's Snyder's vision, and through 2 movies, he's shown nothing worth merit in my eyes.
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Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
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« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2017, 05:29:00 AM »

Nope, that was me Perry. Pine tree and all.  Cool

Damn. I'm sorry I missed that. I would have given you proper praise at the time
 Grin

This also reminds me of a Con story I heard about a female comic writer who was sitting next to Scott Lobdell. He apparently was the worst kind of person to her-sexist, mysoginist, insulting, degrading-add in any word you want. She posted about it, it went viral, it came back to him, and he apologized, even though he didn't think anything he said was that bad.

I hear a similar story about Brian Wood (Alien:Defiance, Briggs Land, Rebels, etc ...) though ... there was some big difference of opinion (or not) of how he acted at a con. The woman, another creator, said something along the line that he went overboard trying to get her to have sex and she felt actually threatened, while he says yes, he asked he if she wanted to go up to his room, but that was all it was. He just threw it out, she said no and that was it. I am not taking sides here, I don't know what happened, but as a guy, I can see both how she felt threatened and how he feels it was not a big deal.

I still buy Brian Woods stuff ... and love it all (though I wasn't a huge fan of the Massive)

But, as for the story, I think, if both sides are true, that is a great example of how people see things the way they want or the way it effects them the most/best/least.
That or one person is lying their ass off
 Sad
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Mitch
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« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2017, 08:08:45 AM »

But hey, I am not mad at ya. Not mad at anyone that takes certain things harder than others. I get it. I do. Of course you should be mad at Whedon if it hit you that way. Heck yeah. And I don't think Jimmy was saying you shouldn't (nor am I saying that is what you were saying by saying what you were just saying)

Oh, I know.  Appreciated but unnecessary.   Wink  I haven't interpreted anyone's comments as being angry or confrontational against me or my posts, and I hope no one took my comments as defensive.  One of the weakness of reading words on a screen instead of face-to-face conversation I suppose.

Also, BTW, I wasn't really defending Gibson; I was just taking that one example of his anti-Semitic remarks for which he appeared to repent and contrasting them to the example of Whedon's unrepentant remarks.
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"I need a day when there aren't twenty crises to deal with, but I don't see that coming any time soon."  - Iron Man (Captain America #29)
Perry
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« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2017, 09:53:26 AM »

Totally understood
 Cool
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Jimmy T
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« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2017, 10:32:46 AM »

 Also totally understood.  Smiley

I just like good conversation topics.
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Jimmy T since 2001
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« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2017, 01:22:36 PM »

Over the past 10 years or so, it feels we live in a society where you get into more trouble for what you say instead of what you do.

It's certainly easier for me to forgive someone saying something stupid/wrong/offensive than actually harming another person physically or do something shady that's harmful to another person's way of life.

Chris Brown is a poor example since I wasn't into his music to begin with, but he's the first guy that comes to mind. If he made insulting remarks on social media that's one thing. I might stay away from his work for a certain period and leave it at that. However, when assault is involved then his name is always going to be tainted for me. Everything he touches will be a little gross. Hypothetically, even if I were to forgive him for such a thing, his name will always carry a negative feeling with me. The work will always be seen/heard through a different filter. Even if I did like the work, I wouldn't necessary admit it out of guilt and probably wouldn't pay money for it.

Going back to what artists say, sometimes I need time and distance from them and their work, before I can start to forgive. I may grow to like their work again, but I won't follow them on social media, read/watch/listen to their interviews, follow news about them, or want to meet them in person. Not like it's some sort of punishment not to meet me  Smiley I just want to be able to continue to focus on the work without anything else getting in the way.

Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, there's a lot of comic creators who's work I like so I will never follow them online to keep it that way.
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Perry
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« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2017, 02:57:07 AM »

Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, there's a lot of comic creators who's work I like so I will never follow them online to keep it that way.

A good practice
 Smiley
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