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Author Topic: Civil War II  (Read 2138 times)
Perry
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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2016, 10:24:36 AM »

The Accused (one shot)

So I decided to give this "tie-in" a go as it is about an important factor in an event that happened ... in this event  Grin

Ya know the term look before you leap? Of course you do. Well all I can say is I shouldn't have even looked before I looked.  Cheesy I got about 4 or 5 pages into this book when the dialog and horrible panel direction became so distracting to me that I had to close this up. "Nope" I thought, can't read this.

I then went to put the book down and while doing so, I caught a glimpse of the cover and the credits laid before me. Gazing at the top name all I could do was laugh, for when I saw that name it all became clear.

The Accused written by Guggenheim.

Ha. Should have known. Now I have to make sure I check The Fallen, another one-shot I had plans on reading, that ties into this tie-in  Wink before I even open the book, to make sure it is a different writer. If not, nope, not reading that either.

3 outta 10 - pages I could've made it through.
 Roll Eyes
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Perry
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« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2016, 05:05:35 AM »

It's over.
Things happened that make me shake my head and things happened, as they often do, to set up more stuff at Marvel. This series still makes no sense to me. I mean, I was a fan of the first Civil War even through some of the mis-characterization because of the "it is a good plausible story. It could happen" aspect, but here, with Captain Marvel ... NO F'n WAY.

Don't get me wrong, I am not mad. I read it all so if I was to be mad I should be mad at myself. I mean if I hate something why read it? Well, I can only claim "car accident" I suppose, couldn't look away, but I still can't be mad. I can only not like it. And trust me people, other than the art that was fan'freaking'tastic, this story was not enjoyable and I did not like it.

Look forward to the next event, just hopefully it will be in three ... or ten years.
 Wink
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Jimmy T
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« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2017, 11:11:38 AM »


Look forward to the next event, just hopefully it will be in three ... or ten years.
 Wink

I realized you did mean to say this with mirth and tongue in check, but all I can think of is this: when is another good one going to come? J. Hickman isn't writing for Marvel anymore. Bendis has only shown he can't deliver on the big huge events. He can't. How soon before the next event interrupts everything yet again, but in a manner that only delays getting back to the good stuff?

I realize that there are gems here and there with any event, but slamming a round character into a square plot whole just really annoys the shit out of me.

(and yes, this applies to both companies. But, seeing as how I wasn't a fan of CW I, and from what I've been continually reading of CW II, I'm going to have a hard time not having my own self fulfilling prophecy coming true.)

Perry, if you read this as only as Jimmy T's anti-Marvel rant...well, I hope you don't. I hope you can see it as me railing against poorly directed stories without a truly organic character beginnings and purpose.
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Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
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« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2017, 07:04:41 AM »

I realized you did mean to say this with mirth and tongue in check, but all I can think of is this: when is another good one going to come?

Well I guess that depends on what you consider good  Wink, becuase when you say stuff like this -
But, seeing as how I wasn't a fan of CW [one] ...

I'm not sure I can answer your question as that was, for me, even with the somewhat odd (off) characterization, a great ... GREAT event. It just was. So great they made a great movie around it. The plot of that event was fantastic, the story was all universe inclusive, the crossover titles mattered (for the most part) and ... and this is important ... the ramifications of that first Civil War were felt for years and years afterwards.

Yes, that event was great.  Smiley

As far as throwing a time-scale on a good event and "when the next one will come?" ... ha, l wish I could answer that, for more reasons than the logical ones you mentioned  Smiley, but those are the major reasons, for sure. Hickman is gone, Bendis has not been able to write a team book to satisfy me for years, much less plan out, plot out a decent universal encompassing "Event", but there are some great writers still at Marvel. Jason Aaron, who has ... well, had plotted out Thor so perfectly (until Marvel made him postpone the "Unworthy Thor" arc) is one writer I would love to see do a company wide event. Even with his last foray into that being less than stellar (See Original Sin for details  Cheesy)

I also think Jeff Lemire has the chops to do some interesting events if given the chance, his Bloodshot alone is worth giving him the chance, but his Moon Knight (which is AMAZING!!!) and his Old Man Logan are really well done. The only thing I would be worried about would be is he like Bendis? A writer that just blows me away when he writes solo characters, but would suffer when writer teams or huge events? He was a writer on DC's Future's End after all, but his Black Hammer is so well done as a team book, and we have only touched the surface of that, that I feel confident in his ability to do so.

Heck, even Mark Waid, who has really came back with his Champions, though admittedly not making me love Avengers, could do something. I think his knowledge of Marvel History would be a great fit when Marvel finally realizes they need to make some changes and get back to "our heroes" again.

But yes, until management stops dictating how the writers need to direct their stories, start planning properly to elimate yet another late F'n event book, none of that will matter anyway.

And as for his -
,,, and from what I've been continually reading of CW II ...

Why would you do that to yourself? Haha  Wink Such a horrible, horrible event.  Undecided I would advise eveyone to just stop hurting themselves and at best, just read the last issue, issue #7 ... oh yeah ... I mean issue #8  Roll Eyes and leave the rest alone. I would be willing to fill in any blanks you need, because I was dumb enough to read the entirety of that darn thing.

Perry, if you read this as only as Jimmy T's anti-Marvel rant...well, I hope you don't.

 Smiley
Not at all.

I hope you can see it as me railing against poorly directed stories without a truly organic character beginnings and purpose.

Sure. I do see that. I never had an issue with you railing against bad stories, I just took umbrage with you, in the past, for ... how do the young peeps say it?... "throwing shade one sided"  Smiley Slamming Marvel for every little thing while being so damn forgiving to DC for also doing stupid shit at one point in time.  Grin Now yes, it was probably not as bad as I saw it, I do realize that  Grin but it seemed at one time you would make time to come on here and blast Marvel for ... something, and then not do the same to DC. But again, I may have (read as "I am sure I did") taken things a bit too personally
 Grin Grin Grin
Although yes, the old "But DC did it better" thing was a sore point for me, sure  Wink
Only as it reminded me of the stupid "PS4 rules while the X-'BONE' sucks ass" shit you see online all the time or when I was growing up ... "Ford is 100% a better car than any Chevy". Ugh. It just seems we, society, love to fall in love with one side or the other and seem to never find value in what the other side does/says or otherwise. At least that is how I took it with you at one time. Probably a little too much so, I do say.  Grin My bad, man. All good. I'm better now
 Grin

EDIT - And of course we didn't have to wait long for one part of the question as hey, Marvel has announced its next "big event" (With Captain America) we may find out soon. Clicky HERE for more
 Smiley
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 02:53:43 PM by Perry » Logged
Jeff
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« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2017, 09:26:37 AM »

I find this interesting as I have a friend who recently just got into reading Marvel because of Civil War II.  He keeps telling me how great it is.
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"If I could go back in time and like tell 11 year old me that like not only do you get to go to Comic Con but you go every year.  So much so that you get greeted by Stan Lee when you show up.  And 11 year old me would be like - How did we get so fat?" - Kevin Smith
Perry
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« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2017, 02:50:11 PM »

I find this interesting as I have a friend who recently just got into reading Marvel because of Civil War II.  He keeps telling me how great it is.

Question, when you see this friend, is it in a hospital that requires you to sign-in first? Do you have to call ahead and make sure his electroshock is not scheduled for the same time?
 Grin Wink Smiley

He man, seriously, what ever floats his boat. If he is that new to comics, he will soon see the error when he reads more and more "good stuff"
 Grin

Or hey, maybe he just likes it. There is nothing ... a little ... wrong with that.
 Grin
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Jeff
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« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2017, 11:48:01 AM »

I agree - I'm just happy he's getting into the Marvel stuff.  I turned him on to Secret Wars and he loved that too.  It has prompted a lot of fun conversation as he keeps asking me questions about different characters and story-lines.  I got him to sign up for MU to help him get some good reading in.
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"If I could go back in time and like tell 11 year old me that like not only do you get to go to Comic Con but you go every year.  So much so that you get greeted by Stan Lee when you show up.  And 11 year old me would be like - How did we get so fat?" - Kevin Smith
Jimmy T
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« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2017, 11:39:33 PM »


Why would you do that to yourself? Haha  Wink Such a horrible, horrible event.  Undecided I would advise eveyone to just stop hurting themselves and at best, just read the last issue, issue #7 ... oh yeah ... I mean issue #8  Roll Eyes and leave the rest alone. I would be willing to fill in any blanks you need, because I was dumb enough to read the entirety of that darn thing.


No kidding, as a quick aside from all of that, it seems so very telling to me that you simply say skip it all together, or just wait for the last issue.

'cuz I'll tell ya know, first issues have popped on on MU now. *sigh* Nertz
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Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2017, 03:30:52 AM »

I agree - I'm just happy he's getting into the Marvel stuff.  I turned him on to Secret Wars and he loved that too.  It has prompted a lot of fun conversation as he keeps asking me questions about different characters and story-lines.  I got him to sign up for MU to help him get some good reading in.

That is fantastic, man!!!! Glad you snared another one into the fold  Grin

No kidding, as a quick aside from all of that, it seems so very telling to me that you simply say skip it all together, or just wait for the last issue.

'cuz I'll tell ya know, first issues have popped on on MU now. *sigh* Nertz

Actually ... well, no. I was going to say that Bendis didn't do too bad at first, like always (he seems to falter late in the game with these after starting strong), but there are things I just didn't like from the get go so ... no. I can't say that.

Very important things happen in this "event", that will be a part of MU (universe not unlimited  Cheesy) and to me, that HELPS with any event as I think that should be the point. A major universe event should stay in the minds of the characters and their actions for years afterwards, but some of the stuff here ... UGH.

Of course we are also talking about a company mandate here that pushes stories ... that pushes directions as well, so not sure how much Bendis is "to blame" or how much he just tried to make the best of what Marvel wanted. IF they wanted it, which if you look at their current output ... they wanted it I think.

EDIT - And don't want you to think this was a total "nothing good here" book as that is not the case, with me at least. I did enjoy one or two things (one of those being that their will be ramifications, which I think you need, again), but ... yeah ... one or two things that I liked compared to ... Huh
 Undecided
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 03:42:18 AM by Perry » Logged
Jimmy T
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« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2017, 08:15:29 PM »

I've read issues 0, 1 & 2

I do not like what has been presented.

Tony is wrong.

Tony is wrong to attack, invade a foreign power, kidnap a person, and subject him to his testing-with abuse, on top of the taking of this person's civil liberties.

I won't get into 'Tony being written wrong' (it's a bit of a butchering to further a plot element, but it's also just a really long stretch of other things Tony has done, too <not that I've always been happy about that>)-

-but I will get into Tony being wrong because him shouting 'you had a vision to use, and went into it, and got him killed!'

WHAT F***ING SENSE DOES THAT MAKE?!!

Every day War Machine is out there doing things where he will be killed. Hell, he's been killed before, or near enough to it. Don't even put grief here, as the reason he goes off. Tony's reasoning is so bullshit dumb, but its needed to kick things ahead.

I'm not even sure why Tony was so pissed here at Carol. It's THANOS; of course you're going to try and stop him!!! That's what this planet's heroes do!! It's not like Carol knew someone was going to drunk drive 2 years from now and went and killed him in his sleep this night. She tried to stop THANOS. She wasn't trying to kill baby Hitler in his crib, she was trying to stop THANOS. What the f*** is Tony's problem?

I'll say the problem is bad narrative hook.

Perhaps this sounds like I'm mad as hell, or calling it shitty and wishing people believed me. I'm more trying to get across how perplexed I am that this was the execution of the idea of predetermination versus ever changing futures. This was the best way to do it? It just seems poor and badly thought out.


I'm just not sure of how much I'm enjoying this avenue of push for things in Marvel's future. Again, I'm not the audience, as we discussed, or as I get it, but man...what the heck is going on around there?

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Jimmy T since 2001
Jimmy T
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« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2017, 08:00:04 PM »

Concerning issue 3,...I will be back to discuss at great length. Undecided
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Jimmy T since 2001
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« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2017, 07:56:23 PM »

Issue 3

Going back through, page by page, I’m quite irritated in how they confronted Bruce. Blaming, harsh, combative, withholding. Who the hell are Carol and Tony that Bruce has to answer to them, as if he is a child being scolded by angry parents who are yelling ‘do as I say, not as I do!’

In being fair, I’m not labeling this as bad writing, I’m saying Carol and Tony seriously misjudged how to go about starting this conversation. Mind you, yes, he’s the Hulk and all. But you don’t bring an army to Bruce Banner and expect him to stay civil and calm.

Second strike? Going through his files-in front of him-and calling him out without understanding all his research. Bad moves on the parts of the…protagonists, not on the writer. I can distinguish that, Perry. Wink

Then that bitch-rag Maria Hill goes to arrest him. ON WHAT CHARGES!!! “We have to detain you.” (again this gets into how unlawful and, well, fucking evil SHIELD is. More of that next issue!) Detain him on what grounds? Fear and paranoia? Is there a single person there that truly understands gamma radiation like Dr. Banner? (being that this is a comic, and all geniuses understand all science immediately, no matter what degree they have, possibly), but Sam Cap going ‘oh. My. God.’ And Spidey going ‘Oh, no.’ What the hell do you guys know about any of this? You just 'tldr'ed that headline! Shit, there’s how many months of research there, and Beast just got all of it? Puhleez.

Here, I may go after the writing, because the characters went ballistic in reaction, and then bammo, Bruce is dead. Ugh. What an ugh moment. Then, the beginning of more writing character assassination and pathetic blame-writing. Tony ‘I was there to stop you from doing this! It’s your fault!’ Sure, if you meant that, you wouldn’t have allowed an army to show up to talk nicely over tea.

Then the Gestapo, I mean SHIELD, declare it a federal crime scene. Under what jurisdiction? The US? Because you sure don’t follow all US laws.

Matt Murdock, painting Clint Barton as a criminal was such a damn farce of dialogue I f***ing scoffed out loud. ‘Potentially’ as a lawyer, maybe he’s painting a picture as the prosecutor, but still.

Getting back to Tony’s ‘indignation’ high road sanctimonious attitude- HE FUCKING SENT BRUCE INTO SPACE TO LIVE AND DIE OUT THERE. HE INJECTED VILLAINS WITH NANOBOTS TO CONTROL THEM TO GO AFTER HIS OWN FRIENDS AND ALLIES. That ‘next on your hit list’ line to Carol just made me choke on my tongue. Lets not forget that last issue he KIDNAPPED SOMEONE, DID ABUSE TO HIM, AFTER INVADING A FOREIGN POWER BECAUSE HE THOUGHT HE WAS ENTIRELY RIGHT AND TO HELL WITH ALL OTHERS. Accountability Tony? Look in a fucking mirror. Such nonsense writing.

In issue 4, I feel, is where so much of the narrative falls apart, because now we start talking about true philosophical overtures pitted not against free will, but poor science.

Mind you, this is good one part review, one part personal taste, and one part rant. Pick apart what you feel may actually be valid.
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Jimmy T since 2001
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« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2017, 03:13:54 PM »

Regarding #4

The continuing issues that this book weakly puts forth aren't about determinism vs free will, its determinism, or quantum theory actually, not necessarily vs profiling but actually fortune telling. Profiling doesn't allow you tell the future. It doesn't allow you to be able to tell that Thanos is going pop up in a secret laboratory and steal a cosmic sphere shard.

So, that's an issue I have with all of this. If anything, based on Ulysses' abilities, I'm on board with Carol. She is stopping future horrible events from happening. The issues I have with Tony's speech is 'the future's not written, it can't be written' shtick is that YES, he's right; which is why Carol's plans can work!! If the future isn't set, then she can change it! Why is there an issue?

Can he be right that Ulysses fear and biases, and by no neuroses could be influencing events? Sure thing. Hell, you want to do something, have him write his prophecies for a month and see how absolutely true he is. Do that.

Tony stating he acted as Dr. Doom would, and that's he okay with it, SHOULD NEVER BE OKAY. Tony deciding the ends justify the means takes him all the way back to his mistakes from first Civil War-which was him being all kinds of wrong in all kinds of manner.  But still, I don't believe in half the things he says. Perhaps thats a good writing element, that one side is not ironclad in its presentation. I just know that I don't enjoy the reading of it. Just as I dont' enjoy the reading of Carol holding this woman without any due process, indefinitely; yes, that's a witch hunt! How could she?!! Ugh .

But then, yes, more bad comic stuff "I want Tony Stark arrested immediately." Again, FOR WHAT??!! DISAGREEING WITH CAROL? WTF?!

And what's Tony doing? 'Stand down!' Stand down from what? Fighting you when you're ready to fight? Why fight? WHAT THE F***?! This makes so little sense!! It's pure nonsense!! And the GOTG come in...WHY?!! This is comics nonsense.

And by what Perry has said, and other reviews I've seen, it's only getting worse, isn't it? Sorry BMB, you just can't fully write an event. You just never have been able to do it well. I almost feel that you are just put in the front to write this for Marvel because of your name, not because you want to. It's just so poor. and sad.


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Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
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« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2017, 06:08:16 AM »

Hmmm, interesting. However, and I hope that maybe you can give me more points to ponder, but to me ...

The reason why Carol can NOT be right (Edit - In my opinion  Cheesy Grin) is the fact she is using "possible future events" as proof or evidence that the events in question will happen. The problem with that? Beyond the human rights issues (which let's not kid ourselves, that is a MAJOR problem) She knows that there are too many variables in using "the future" to determine anything. How does she know it is "this" universe she is seeing (she certainly knows the possibility of other universes existing), How can she trust, after even two events happening, that the outcome of those events would be the same had she not interfered in the first place, how can she trust, again, after only two or three "events" that EVERY event will happen and finally she should know that the future is never ever a set in stone product.

So to me, even if you can come to terms with all things being found to be factual, that every event is in this universe, that every event will happen, that every event will go the way it is shown even if you do nothing by not placing yourself (or others) in the situation and even if you know that your interference will not make something else worse by changing the future (which you can't know)... there is still the human rights issue.
(And I can easily tie that into what is happening in the world now, but I will not do so)
 Cheesy Wink

To me, there is just too much piled against her for her actions to be considered correct. But that's me
 Smiley

 Smiley
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 01:03:29 PM by Perry » Logged
Jimmy T
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« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2017, 06:41:00 PM »

In response:

For me, the American civil rights aspect is the greatest, most important aspect to consider. SHIELD does it all the time, even before #4!! They always detain who they want, for as long as they want, based on what they need to do. But, the event shown here, with Carol taking away the Wall Streeter is the first time we are shown in the comic form that the 'future' doesn't immediately happen after the vision. This 'stopping it before it can occur when we usually stop from what has happened' angle I do not like at all.

However, for my supposition, I'm taking it at face value that the future Ulysses sees all and only occurs within this Marvel universe. It's what we're led to believe, in all honesty. Because, if it wasn't, then all of the reasoning for Carol to do as she does would fly completely out the window!!!

In trusting the events...well, so far they have all (whoops, not with the Hulk!) come true. Excepting what we see in this issue. So, so far, one would have to believe in what is occurring. Now, I'd love to see more 'trust, but verify', as that was thrown out the window for the supposed Hydra banker, but I guess I'll see what more ridiculous occurs next issue.

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Jimmy T since 2001
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