UNIVERSE REBIRTH

[Jimmy T]

A purely spoilery thread. I'm not doing the bracketing.

SO!

Was this a good issue? A great issue? A bout time issue? Or a huge clean up of a clusterf#ck?

Me? I'm just happy to see the backpedaling. I read ComicsAlliance round table on this issue, and I highly disagree with most of their thoughts. Many said this was pandering to the old DC audience, and that it will alienate or cost them the fans that came with the new 52.

Really? Have those new fans stuck around? Look at DC sales numbers. They are worse (I think) than from before Flashpoint. Those that are around are the hardcore fans hoping for their books to come back. And to be honest, that's what I want. Screw the new 52. There have been some really good and GREAT stories

-Lemire & Sorrentino Green Arrow
-Azzarello & Chiang Wonder Woman
-Snyder & Capullo Batman over 5 years
-Morrison's Superman was a fun vision of Superman, but I'm happy with looking at that as an Elseworlds tale

...is that it? Aquaman had it's moments, but it never did truly what I wanted it to do. But I did enjoy reading it. Superman has mostly just been an utter disappointment and waste. Green Lantern was good enough, serviceable, and then pretty good most of the time.

Flash, blech.

But nothing else was a hit for me.

So, "kinda" going back to what was, or bring it back all wrinkled up, in the manner described as missing 10 years makes me interested. Curious. I'm happier to see it as something that was stolen, rather than erased. Theft means it can be returned. Erased means it's gone. Flashpoint erased what we knew and loved (or liked, or knew). Rebirth says that it's supposed to be a certain way, but its not that way yet.

Which I'm fine with!!!

And who is a fan of the current Wally West? Did he really resonate or come to be anyone's fans during this time? Nope. Shit, I'm still not a fan of Barry unless Johns writes him. Do I really like the way its happening that there are 2 Wally's? I don't care! At all!! Is there a "REAL" Wally West? You bet your ass there is. The other may establish himself somehow, but for now, it's mine all the way.

Now, the Dr. Manhattan thing? Wow, they went and did it. There is no way Moore ever allows any relationship to occur with DC ever again. Am I glad that Pandora blew up? Oh you bet your sweet muffin ass I did.

Do I wonder if Didio has a short grasp on his job? Perhaps. I thought it was his railroading idea to do the New 52, and well, lets be honest, it failed. It got event numbers, and never got back there. Except for event numbers every 12 months.

I don't mind when things change. Or when things aren't my way (I'd never bring Barry back, I'd never bring Damien Wayne back, some other things), but hey, that's okay. Through all my stuff out with the bathwater and tell me to still like it? I never liked the Ultimate universe, I never came back to Spider-man in full after One More Day, Iron Man as an adopted kid of Howard, DD as a Ninja killer of the Hand, and I just couldn't fully call the new 52 home.

So, give me something I can love DC. This is TRULY, completely your last chance for me. Do good work. I'm watching.

[Perry]

Well ...
 
Good write-up ... until ...

(I'd never bring Barry back ...

That killed the logic in your argument as Barry is the best Flash 
 

And this comment -

...I'd never bring Damien Wayne back

Made me remember when I hated the character. I understand, even though I now do not and actually really enjoy him. One of those I hate him so much I like him things? Maybe.
 

I added a couple more titles to my "DC try-out". I am now up to 18 titles that I am giving the "New 52 dive-in and try" by adding-
Green Arrow - Because Jimmy likes the writer (Now I will see if it is just character blindness  )
Green Lanterns - Had no interest until the events of Justice League #50. Now curious at least
Batgirl - Just to see Rafael Albuquerque's art on Batgirl
Teen Titans - Just ... shit ... just gotta try

Was there a thread were we listed what we are getting from the Rebirth? If so, let me know or start one so we can post them all. I thought I saw one, but could have been just in a post or something.
 

[Jeff]

Sorry Perry, Walky is my favorite Flash. At least until they jacked up his kids. At least this looks like they may not exist anymore.  I liked Barry being dead and Wally taking over the mantle.  But now that it's been awhile, I'm ok with Barry and Wally both being around.  I'm just so glad he's back that nothing else bothers me.

I actually like Damien.  I liked the dynamic when Grayson was Batman and Damien was Robin.  That was a fun time and I'd like seeing him as Nightwings sidekick.

They are bringing back the Legion, the Justice Society, and Wally West.  I'm going to love it.

They really have a chance here to meld the best of both universes and make it ok for all readers.  I'm optimistic this time and I'm going to try to stay that.

I was getting to the point where I just wasn't enjoying comics anymore.  I don't know why, but this first issue b!tch slapped the heck out of me and I'm anxious to dive into DC again. That spark is back all of a sudden.  And it's awesome.

[Perry]

Sorry Perry, Walky is my favorite Flash.

And you're entitled to be wrong 

I look at it this way, Wally is fine as another speedster and there is nothing wrong with that. He was and will always be Kid Flash to me, but Flash is Barry. It is like saying Dick made a better Batman. No, Batman is Batman and Batman is Bruce. That doesn't mean Nightwing is any less of a great character. Same with Wally. Just because he isn't "Flash", doesn't mean he isn't great. But anyone that read Flash back in the day and had to deal with that ... "great" ... Infantino art, knows that Barry is Flash and it is the only choice here.
 

Just joking of course  , you can like Wally all you want as Flash, obviously, but I will never think of him that way. I am sure there are even older people than me that say Jay is the only Flash. Okay, I doubt there are that many of those guys alive any longer.
 

[Jimmy T]

While I'd say that I'd never bring those characters back, that's just a personal thought. I wouldn't say it as something the company should have done-as neither of those characters meant anything for me (Damien KILLED people!! In his second comic appearance, two bouncing heads herald his entrance!!! <ye gawd, I hope I'm remembering that right!).

I wouldn't have called for Jason Todd's return, but hey, I like that character currently, or still, so I'm fine with it.

That said-have you enjoyed a Barry Allen comic since he was returned? If not, if they really haven't been any good (which is what I really think), then it was a waste to bring him back if he hasn't added anything for fans anywhere.

[Perry]

That said-have you enjoyed a Barry Allen comic since he was returned? 

No, but the same would have been said for Wally most chances. Would those Nu52 Flash books been better with Wally? Highly doubtful.

What is it that makes Wally better than Barry?

Is it his youth? Nah, comic age doesn't matter for heroes
Is it his powers? Nah, same as Barry's
It damn sure can't be his rouges gallery. All the best ones were just re-purposed from Barry.  Do you remember Wally's first couple of "Rouges? Hell any of his rouges?
Savitar? (The 90's villain personified) 
Brothers Grimm?
Cobalt Man?
Girder?
Double Down?
Tar Pit?

Heck I can't remember that one bad guy that Wally faced early on in his run ... right after he battled ... 

No, none of that is what makes Wally better. What makes Wally better to most? Timing.

Look, I know you guys like Wally because you read Wally. I get it. Hell, Wally's stories are certainly better ... but he had a hell of a lot better list of writers AND a more adult oriented time to be a hero than Barry ever had. Sure, Wally's books are better, but look at what he had.

Who would you rather read long runs of Flash from right now  -
Mark Waid, Geoff Johns, Mike Baron, William Messner-Loebs .. heck, even ... Brian Buchallato and Francis Manapul
or
Robert Kanigher, Cary Bates and Gardner Fox (Okay, that one was great)? Not really a hard choice now a days is it?
And yes, Geoff Johns wrote Rebirth, but come on, we all know that was not great by any means.
Oh, and Marv Wolfman wrote Barry ... just long enough to kill him
 

But question, would any of those stories that you guys (and I) enjoy featuring Wally been any different or less enjoyable if he was still Kid Flash at the time? Or a hero character by another name other than Flash? Wouldn't you still have liked those stories? That is what I don't like. Barry Was/is/and shall ever be Flash. Wally, who stole his name, should have been called anything but Flash.

It is just like this new Wally ... well not the new, new one, but the other new  Wally West. The nu52 West. I hate they changed Wally West. Not because I hate they made him black, but because they changed him at all. Instead of making another character, another cool ass black hero, they took an old white one and twisted it. Took his name. Damn it, don't take a character and CHANGE him. Make a new character. Hell, Jeff, you didn't like when Wally wasn't Wally any longer. Same thing here for me and Flash. The Flash is Barry. Wally should have been called another name. Why couldn't Wally (the 1st) been Super Streak (or some other, better, more reasonable name  ) when Barry died? No, he had to take an identity. I don't like that and never will.

Now I know what you are thinking ... but what about Barry using the Flash name from Jay? Well before Wally did it with Barry? Well my answer is two fold ...
One - That Flash was on a different Earth (or in a comic book originally)
and
Two - I didn't read that Flash when I was young 

Again, I understand why you guys like Wally better. He was around at the time you were reading him and at the right time to have some killer writing. But he was able to have that due to the best Flash ever, Barry Allen.
(And yes, Barry hever had those horrible F'n kids either. What was Waid doing???)
 

Wally had the timing, the writing, the art, the borrowed Rouges  ... still doesn't make him the "better" Flash.

And I am not bitter that Wally took the costume. Please don't think that. I get it. It made sense, and I enjoyed me some Wally "Flash" comics. Some really great stuff. But now that the best Flash is back ... THE FLASH ... I am glad that Wally will have his own name ... finally.
 

[Jimmy T]

Perry,

Can I say how fun it is to see you react personally about character while I react about comics from a publishing view point?

Let's take a moment to drink that in.

[Perry]

 

What a turn of events this is.

 

[Jimmy T]

And, rehashing prior debates, it's not that I hate Barry Allen. I "nothing" this Barry Allen (I love Barry! I hate Barry! Well, I nothing Barry). The Barry Allen I liked was the man of legacy, the hero who seemed squeakier cleanier than Superman. The current Barry Allen, without a marriage or relationship to Iris, dating around, or being all weak and pathetic like Peter Parker IS NOT the Barry I want to read.

I want to read the Barry that Wally West talked about for almost 300 issues. I haven't read that Barry in anything, really, since Return.

So, I wanted Wally back since he was a character who got royally screwed over Barry's return and sent packing. And, for what? So Barry Allen could be returned? Okay, so that happened. So then what? Anything? Nope. Not really. Now that's bad marketing/packaging/planning.

You make some great arguments, Perry, about being upset about Barry being washed away from life only to have Wally take all that over as his own. IF I was old enough then, , and a Flash fan, perhaps I too would have been upset.

And, as for your question, would those stories been any better if Wally was still Kid Flash? Nope, not at all. But I do like the training and acceptance that the world needs a Flash, the Flash, so training to become that man is the best thing a (surrogate) son could do for his father. That's a storyline I truly loved to hang my hat on.

And at no point did either Jeff or I say Wally was the best Flash. That was all on you, Perry.   I always liked that there was still speed force stuff that Barry could do that Wally couldn't. I liked figuring that Barry was smarter about the speedforce and applications, while Wally was <probably> faster due to his bullheaded nature and his nature to take everything up to the max as much as he could when running all out. I think I remember a Waid issue (maybe issue 100? 150?) where Wally just had to move so fast for the threat, that he powered and moved so fast that other speedsters weren't able to track him or see him move, he was that fast. All I could think of was..."cool". .

But!!!

A bit more on track, I'm definitely high on the paint fumes with Jeff and want to fall in love with DC again. We could start a thread about what books we plan on picking up; or just continue with that here!!

[Perry]

What I plan on trying from Rebirth

The usual suspects to start and they would have to be pretty bad for me to stop getting because, well, yes, Batman is my guy :

Batman
All-Star Batman
Detective

Then gonna try these and see where it goes:
(Will give most a good try, but those with a "*" will have to impress me to stay for more than 1 or 2 issues)

Batgirl - Changed my mind.
Nightwing
Deathstroke
Green Arrow *On the bubble* - No more
Green Lanterns *On the bubble*
Hal and the GLC *On the bubble*
Aquaman
Flash
Wonder Woman
Justice League
Justice League of America - Canceled the idea of this book also. Just starting to fade from Hitch
Blue Beetle
Trinity *
Titans
Teen Titans

Not trying, really. Not putting too much effort to obtain I should say, but give a read if given to me :

Batman Beyond
Action Comics Going to try this one as it turns out  
Superman ... although I did get issue 1 ... and no. Just no.
The Super-Man
Super-Woman
Super-Girl
Cyborg
Hellblazer
Red Hood & The Outlaws
Harley Quinn
Batgirl and the Birds of Prey (Just getting Batgirl for the artist and hoping the writer grabs me)

Giving serious thought about, and have yet to decide which way I'm gonna go with these :

Suicide Squad
Super Sons
Gotham Academy

[Perry]

So I came here to ask Jimmy if he has time to read any of the Rebirth stuff yet and came across this. Sorry, Jimbo, just totally missed forgot about this. I saw it one day when I was in a rush and never got back to it. And as it has been a few, I will only respond to a few of the quotes ...

I want to read the Barry that Wally West talked about for almost 300 issues. I haven't read that Barry in anything, really, since Return.

Amen, brotha!!!!

And at no point did either Jeff or I say Wally was the best Flash. That was all on you, Perry.  

I can believe that 

A bit more on track, I'm definitely high on the paint fumes with Jeff and want to fall in love with DC again. We could start a thread about what books we plan on picking up; or just continue with that here!!

Yes, even after the first week of Rebirth I know I am still excited so sure, post the stuff man you're getting here. You and Jeff!!
 
I already have to change one or two that I decided against, before even reading as the amount started to become more clear. Both the amount of books and the amount of potential cost if I have to buy all of them
 

[Jimmy T]

I have plans for....

Action Comics
Superman
Superwoman
Aquaman
Batman
Detective Comics
Deathstroke !!! Priest !!!
Green Arrow (which I'm worried about now... )
Green Lanterns
Hal and the GLC
Wonder Woman

Justice League is always in trades anyways. After 6 issues, I may try to go back to Batman and/or Detective in trades only.

[Perry]

Yeah, 11 or 12 ... or 15. That is what I would prefer to get my pull to. But man, those twice a month books may just kill that idea. I hope not, but then again, heck, honestly, if I can get 7 or 8 books that I am happy ARE coming out twice a month, that would be great as well.
 

[Jeff]

I'm giving all of the Rebirth issues a read and will likely chop from there.

Here are my thoughts at this point in the game:

Batman - Getting issue 1
Flash - Definately giving this a try unless the Rebirth issue just totally sucks.
Wonder Woman - You had me at "Greg Rucka"
Nightwing - Duh.  Getting this.
Titans - Also, Duh.  Getting this.
Super-Girl - If I get this at all it will be for Hannah since its going to be like the TV show.  I have no interest really.

Aquaman - Dan Abnett on script had me saying YES! Then I read Titans Hunt.  Now it's "Let's see how the Rebirth issue goes."
Blue Beetle - I'll give this a try.  I like Keith Giffen and his love of Blue Beetle.
Batgirl and the Birds of Prey - I'll try issue 1 to see what it's like.
Detective - Getting issue 934 to see if I like it.
Green Arrow - Will try issue 1 but I hated this Rebirth issue.  Likely will be axed
Hal and the GLC - Going to get issue 1 and see if I like it.  I like Venditti for the most part and wouldn't mind seeing how he handles Hal.
Super Sons - I'll give issue 1 a try.
Superman - I'll get issue 1.  The Rebirth issues was interesting.

All-Star Batman - Torn.  Snyder's batbunny turned me off and JRjr isn't what he used to be.

Deathstroke - My decision pending how I like the Rebirth issue.
Justice League - My decision pending how I like the Rebirth issue.  I will likely get issue 1 at this point.
Justice League of America - My decision pending how I like the Rebirth issue.  I will likely get issue 1 at this point.
Red Hood & The Outlaws - My decision pending how I like the Rebirth issue.
Suicide Squad - My decision pending how I like the Rebirth issue.

Batman Beyond - My decision pending how I like the Rebirth issue.  No interest at this point.
Teen Titans - My decision pending how I like the Rebirth issue.  No interest at this point.
Trinity - My decision pending how I like the Rebirth issue.  No interest at this point.

Green Lanterns -  Probably not getting this.  The only thing I liked on Rebirth was the last page reveal.
Action Comics - Not interested.  I'll skip this.
Batgirl - Not interested.  I'll skip this.
Cyborg - Not interested.  I'll skip this.
Gotham Academy - Not interested.  I'll skip this.
Harley Quinn - Not interested.  I'll skip this.
Hellblazer - Not interested.  I'll skip this.
Super-Woman - Not interested.  I'll skip this.
The Super-Man - Not interested.  I'll skip this.

[Perry]

Made a few changes ...

Canceled the idea of getting:
Green Arrow - Took another peek inside and this is just not for me.
Batgirl - Just for now. I was only getting for the art so I will wait until I hear (hopefully) good things
Teen Titans - After Green Arrow I just don't think the writing will be for me. But can change my mind of course
Justice League of America - I just started looking at Hitch's art and noticed that I was not enjoying as much as I use to. It is still good, but I have noticed that "long torso" artists (artist that make their characters torso look extended, in my eyes at least (like Dale Eaglesham), are just not appealing to my eye any longer. I don't need my characters to look dwarfish, but I don't like Stretch Armstrong either
 

Went ahead and added:
Action Comics - I was hankerin' for some Zircher art and some "action" so hey, the perfect combination  

I can tell my list above will be edited many times before it is all over.