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Author Topic: Top 5 Worst Events  (Read 1782 times)
Perry
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« on: December 17, 2015, 10:17:20 AM »

The 5 worst Marvel Events. Another great vid by the guys at Comic Alliance.

And on this one, I totally agree with the Events listed, but my order would be slightly different. Give a look see and let us know if you agree with them and if your order would be similar!
 Smiley

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Jeff
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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2015, 10:51:45 AM »

Great video.  I don't know if I would put Heroes Reborn in there but I pretty much agree with the rest.  Especially Fear Itself!
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"If I could go back in time and like tell 11 year old me that like not only do you get to go to Comic Con but you go every year.  So much so that you get greeted by Stan Lee when you show up.  And 11 year old me would be like - How did we get so fat?" - Kevin Smith
Jimmy T
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2015, 07:16:40 AM »

See, I guess even with the way I revile things like... A v X, Secret Invasion, Civil War, House of M, Secret War, hm....I would probably put any one of those up into the top 5 and drop Heroes Reborn (just because it was dumb and desparate, but I'm not sure it was reviled...? I don't know, I wouldn't read that stuff! Grin). Yeah, drop Reborn, move up Crusade, and probably put in....Secret Invasion, or House of M.
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Perry
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2015, 07:52:40 AM »

, and probably put in....Secret Invasion, or House of M.

Why? What is it about that event that has you so sour? I'm just curious.  Smiley Was it perfect? Hells no  Cheesy, but the plot, the idea, and more importantly, the impact (which makes an event an event to me) was sound (other than for a few characters) and a great idea as it was also a perfect way to reset the characters that were lost over time, which let's face it, is something the big two has to do all the time (bring back the dead). I am just wondering why you hated Secret Invasion (and Civil War if I remember correctly) so greatly. Plus it tied in the Illuminati (which was a great mini).

Now I'm not bashing you, I just honestly would like to know your thoughts, is all.  Cool Maybe it is just your Bendis hatred?  Grin

Now House of M ... I don't agree, at all, but sure, I can see people despising that ... I guess  Cheesy

But I get the feeling, and it may certainly NOT be the case with you, but I get the feeling that a lot of "hate" towards stuff like Secret Wars is just internet fueled custom. Again, not saying it is your reasoning, hell, I know it isn't, but I have honestly seen people comment about how bad S.I. was and then come to find they didn't even read the damn thing. Yeah CBR posters, I'm talking about you!
 Tongue

But with you, I just want to know what part of Secret Invasion (or Civil War perhaps) didn't hit you well. Heck, what part(s) were so bad that it would make your top 5 worst list over some of the other stuff out there like Atlantis Attacks, Maximum Security or Secret Wars II  Cheesy.
(Though I secretly kinda remember Maximum Security fondly, but it has been years  Cheesy)

But I think you guys need to go back and read all those Heroes Reborn issues again  Grin That stuff (other than the start of the F.F) was just horrible. The Liefeld stuff (Cap and Avengers) is just unreadable and the Iron Man stuff had a horrible design and all of the things that I hated about the 90's just seeped out of that title.
 Undecided
But again, we like what we like  Smiley

EDIT - Oh, Oh, wait ... Shadowland !!! I know that was mostly just a DD "event" and not tied into a ton of Marvel titles, though there were some, but that has to be a top 5 worst right?
 Cheesy
(Though I will also understand Schism.  Cheesy Hell, maybe I should ask what are the top 5 worst "event, mini-event, crossover, whatever" of Marvel and then DC. Yeah  Grin)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 07:59:45 AM by Perry » Logged
Jimmy T
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2015, 08:38:52 AM »

Oh man, you want to go into mini-events? That would be too long and too hard to narrow down!  Cheesy

Call it the waxing of years, but sometimes I forgive the older comics for being bad. Now, I think I do realize that I forgave Reborn a bit too much. I mean, it had to be just awful, right? Of course it did! Wink

I mean, we could go back to Atlantis Attacks or Galactic Storm, and to me, that's just a big goofy 'kids' event to make the heroes cross over with each other. But it wasn't storytelling. Lets go with that. Do I judge the stuff in the most recent 15 years a bit harsher? I'll say yes, but they continue to write comics to adults and not children, so I will hold them up to a better light.

As far as my Bendis hating, it wasn't designed in one moment and etched in stone for perpetuity. I obviously keep reading of his work. I am just continually disappointed by it.

I will generalize some here (that sounds like a CBR poster, but what I'll say does bear merit). What I find in alot of Bendis' work is A) at some point in the event, talking heads prevail for ALOT of it. The story bogs down (I think), and grinds on minutae. Then, B) the story hurries up to a fight, not always for a great reason, or told really poorly  and C)I've always found his resolutions weak.

I realize all events tie into the next thing...but most of his stuff is just a segue way into the next issue. At least with Civil War, that ended. Had an ending. Boom! Hit it.

But there are many other differing, particular to the issue/event itself, and personal tastes of how a story flows or is told that matters.

....I've gone all over, but I think all our tastes are that way.

HoM was boring. I bought the first 2, read the 3rd in store, and said I'd wait til issue 8 to see if anything happened. I read & bought #8, felt I didn't miss anything (I didn't feel lost, I hadn't kept up with prior events, nothing), and didn't feel it mattered all that much or told a very good story.

Secret Invasion bugs the shit out of me for allowing Norman Osborn to essentially win. I said at the time that it was nonsensical and unbelievable, but then I see Trump's comments and polling numbers, so now I don't think it was all that off base.  Roll Eyes  Secret Invasion just seemed too pat for bringing heroes back, excusing others, erasing stories. It wasn't awful, I guess, but nothing I really cared for (and I read all of this one).

(if it helps, I read and bought all of The Siege, and I rather liked that; Bendis tearing down all Bendis had built! Grin!)

Civil War was about writing properties completely out of character to create moments of shock and awe for big sales. Why it took Cap 7 issues to realize he's making war on friends and US citizens before turning himself in~which he would have done from the start!!!!~ is beyond me.

Understand, I'm typing this, but I don't want to give the impression that I'm drinking my Slurpee, eating cheetos, and pounding on my keyboard yelling WORST. COMIC. EVER!! and being all indignant and angry. Far from it. I just didn't like that stuff.

But I wouldn't put any of this stuff above those other Worst 5 (I take back the Reborn switcheroo). In the end, I just didn't like these events that much.

As far as Bendis events...most of the time, the Bendis band, well, they start out really well, hit the right notes (well some extended live solos too long for the crowd's tastes), then go to the big finish and just kinda peter out.

However, he has written one of my...top 25 comic issues, in New Avengers #26. Its the one where the Registration Act comes to take Luke Cage, and he says you can't make me leave my home. And it's a damned great issue.

Now, it makes it seem like all I've done is hate on Marvel for 15 years...and it does seem that way. From my POV, I've watched the 'Marvel Way' become something that doesn't include me. And that sucks. Because I do want to give them my money.  Grin

But we can all agree that Fear Itself was awful. I think I quit all my titles at the time that had a tie-in to that event.

If I were to list events of the last 15 years (until someone reminds me of an event I forgot to put in), starting with 'Okay' and ending with 'weakest', I'll try and say...this...

Secret Invasion
House of M
World War Hulks
A v X
Civil War


Okay, nevermind this got really hard. If I had to use the Wikipedia page of the chrono order of all events, I'd blow my brains out trying.  Cheesy

Ugh Shadowland. Made me quit Daredevil for years. I still don't know how they undid that. Probably ignored it like all other fans did. That was f***ing awful!!!! Just terrible!!!!! I put that right there with "Peter Parker-you are the clone!!"

1.
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Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2015, 10:52:43 AM »

C)I've always found his resolutions weak.

Okay, this is gonna be odd, but I only read up to this point and football is getting ready to start (and I still have to set my platter out), but I want to say I will come back and finish reading your post when I have time to do so. However, I wanted to comment on this last thing you said (that I read), quickly, before I have to go ...

I totally agree that a lot of Bendis' team/events storylines feel like they have no resolution, or worse, the resolution came from no-where, or ever worser  Wink, was just weak as shit. I can agree on a lot of that. For sure. However, I don't think  ... hell ... I gotta go. Even though my game isn't on until 4, that Redzone is calling.

I will get back to this howver and thanks for the reply!!!!
 Smiley
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Jimmy T
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2015, 06:16:19 PM »

Ha!

I didn't bother getting back to this thread until after football had ended anyways. Nice work Steelers!!!!
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Jimmy T since 2001
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2015, 02:53:07 PM »

Ah man Perry, I was really looking forward to your next part!! Where you at?! :p


If anything, you really just nailed it. Yes, it's that Bendis doesn't have a finishing move. Can he write dialogue? OH hells yeah. I will never doubt that. (although, when there are 2 snarky people in one conversation, it makes me want to pass on it though Wink ).

But can he write characterization? Yes, quite so. I won't deny that.

But his endings wither and die likes roses in the fall, and that has just left me disappointed too often.
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Perry
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2015, 05:08:21 PM »

Ah man Perry, I was really looking forward to your next part!! Where you at?! :p

 Grin Sorry, watched football until midnight (lost my fantasy playoff by 6 points due to an amazing game by David Johnson  Sad Undecided Angry) and then woke up and decided I was going to go hit Star Wars. Just went by myself, no wife, no friends, just a solo trip on the spur of the moment. More on that later
 Smiley

But his endings wither and die likes roses in the fall, and that has just left me disappointed too often.


Again, I can totally see (and agree) that point. A lot of times, hell even a majority of the time.  Grin However, I honestly think when he concentrates on just one or two characters, he plans so much better. Other than the most recent turn on Moon Knight (which Marvel butted in and forced a change  ... it was suppose to be the Ultron story that failed so badly ... and then canceled the series) there is not a title featuring a solo or duo that he has not excelled. It's those damn group titles that trip him up. And sadly, it is even more blatantly bad when they start so well crafted, but those endings ... holy hell the endings !!!!

His Avengers run ... Doc Strange was horrible in that as the magical element Bendis started ended up going no-where. His X-Men Battle of the Atom ... okay story, but that ending? What did it change? Nothing. I didn't even try his Guardians the first time as I am just not a fan of Bendis' "team book" work (though I am trying this one, just to see)

But put him on a solo book ... or a book where it is just two characters, the man can bring it -
Alias - A great book from start to finish (I don't count The Pulse)  Grin
Sam and Twitch - The dark detective book fro me. A great piece of comic that is.
Ult Spidey - An enormous run and a great one to boot. It has its detractors, but it is Spidey from top to bottom
Daredevil - One of the pinnacle runs in comics. Fantastic. Truly and utterly great (although this one shouldn't count as he left the title for Brubaker but in a way Bru wanted.)

I really wanted him to do the Power Man and Iron Fist book. There is a new one coming out, but man, Bendis knows how to write Cage and he knows how to write buddy ... this is a dream title for me.
 Cheesy

Okay, anyway ...

Call it the waxing of years, but sometimes I forgive the older comics for being bad.

Understandable.  Grin

As far as my Bendis hating, it wasn't designed in one moment and etched in stone for perpetuity. I obviously keep reading of his work. I am just continually disappointed by it.

This is the key. You're correct, but while that does happen, a lot, it is usually in team books that he has stayed too long on, I think. I mean, I think he gets lost in character voices when he has too many in the first place (IE: Everyone almost always ends up either sounding like Spidey with quips, Reed Richards with tech, a "powerful and strong willed woman" to show he believes in them, world dominating bad-guy or Wolverine with a bad attitude. Those are all his character voices. Almost every character when he does a team book  Grin). However, I think he does well for a time ... it just goes all wonky on him I think ... everyone sounds like those 5 voices. Ultron, Woman, Spidey, Reed, Wolverine. That is his team.

But in his solo character books he does not have that issue. In a team book Dr. Strange could either sound like Spidey or Reed. But if Bendis writes Strange by himself, Strange sounds like Strange. It's fucking odd as hell.

But there are many other differing, particular to the issue/event itself, and personal tastes of how a story flows or is told that matters.

Man, I am tired and copying and pasting quotes is getting me all confused. I write badly enough now as it is, but now I am losing my train of thought before I can type it.  Cheesy

I have never minded Bendis "flow" or his pacing as to me it always seemed realistic as I have had friends that talk the exact way that Bendis writes.
"Really?"
"Yes, Really"
"But ... I ... Really?"
"No lie. Really"
" ..."
"Yes, Really!!!"

That is a Bendis dialog pattern.  Grin He doesn't do it as much now, and I know people hated it, but I honestly had people that I know banter in that manner. Hell, I was one of them.
 Cheesy
So that style or having panels that show a face and then another two or three that show the same face without change ... I loved that as well as it showed you the pacing he is using. Sometimes people say nothing and the flow has to be there. I liked that about Bendis. Others, not so much
 Grin
But I may not read as fast as you. And your time between panels may not be the same as my time, so when we go from panel to panel, your sense of time may be tons different. I think using static images helps set that pacing. But hey ... Just my opinion.
 Wink

HoM was boring. I bought the first 2, read the 3rd in store, and said I'd wait til issue 8 to see if anything happened. I read & bought #8, felt I didn't miss anything (I didn't feel lost, I hadn't kept up with prior events, nothing), and didn't feel it mattered all that much or told a very good story.

Boring? I guess I can see your point. I didn't think so, though I thought the Quicksilver tie-in and limited series was way better. House of M was "Okay" to me. It wasn't an event as much as ramifications of what had happened elsewhere though, so the "family" story maybe was a tad slow.

Secret Invasion bugs the shit out of me for allowing Norman Osborn to essentially win. I said at the time that it was nonsensical and unbelievable, but then I see Trump's comments and polling numbers, so now I don't think it was all that off base.  Roll Eyes  Secret Invasion just seemed too pat for bringing heroes back, excusing others, erasing stories. It wasn't awful, I guess, but nothing I really cared for (and I read all of this one).

Having Norman be allowed to do anything close to that is crazy. But is it that much more crazier than Lex for President?
But I also thought having Norman get away with all that and be a power was stupid, but THAT is not what Secret Invasion was about. The IDEA of Secret Invasion as an event is great. Skrulls have been on Earth fro a long time, in hero form at times and they are coming in force. The overall story was very good. There are parts that suck ass. Like using it as a way to bring Bobbi Morse back  Cheesy
 Cheesy

Civil War was about writing properties completely out of character to create moments of shock and awe for big sales. Why it took Cap 7 issues to realize he's making war on friends and US citizens before turning himself in~which he would have done from the start!!!!~ is beyond me.

Civil War was written horrendously out of character by Millar, but the idea and story behind it ... man, come on, that is great. And, like a good event should, it had repercussions for years afterwards. THAT is an event. Yes characters voices were seriously bad, happens a lot sadly, but the even ... blew my socks off. I bitched and moaned about how "That is not what Cap would do" for months ... and then I look back and go ... "Wow, what a great story"
 Smiley

Understand, I'm typing this, but I don't want to give the impression that I'm drinking my Slurpee, eating cheetos, and pounding on my keyboard yelling WORST. COMIC. EVER!! and being all indignant and angry. Far from it. I just didn't like that stuff.

I get ya, my man  Smiley

However, he has written one of my...top 25 comic issues, in New Avengers #26. Its the one where the Registration Act comes to take Luke Cage, and he says you can't make me leave my home. And it's a damned great issue.

The dude knows Cage (Damn I wish he'd write PM&IF !!!!)  Sad

Now, it makes it seem like all I've done is hate on Marvel for 15 years...and it does seem that way. From my POV, I've watched the 'Marvel Way' become something that doesn't include me. And that sucks. Because I do want to give them my money.  Grin

Eh, again, you're a DC guy. it happens.  Wink Grin

But we can all agree that Fear Itself was awful. I think I quit all my titles at the time that had a tie-in to that event.

Piece of utter shit. Fractions worst work ever I think

Ugh Shadowland. Made me quit Daredevil for years. I still don't know how they undid that. Probably ignored it like all other fans did. That was f***ing awful!!!! Just terrible!!!!! I put that right there with "Peter Parker-you are the clone!!"

HaHA !!!!!
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Jimmy T
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2015, 09:40:22 PM »

But in his solo character books he does not have that issue. In a team book Dr. Strange could either sound like Spidey or Reed. But if Bendis writes Strange by himself, Strange sounds like Strange.It's fucking odd as hell.

LOL yes this! Holy crap, you are so right! That is such a true statement!

I have never minded Bendis "flow" or his pacing as to me it always seemed realistic as I have had friends that talk the exact way that Bendis writes.
"Really?"
"Yes, Really"
"But ... I ... Really?"
"No lie. Really"
" ..."
"Yes, Really!!!"

That is a Bendis dialog pattern.  Grin He doesn't do it as much now, and I know people hated it, but I honestly had people that I know banter in that manner. Hell, I was one of them.
 
I’ve hated this so much. Do people speak this way? Yes. And I think those people sound like idiots when they talk. What may work in real life doesn’t always work in the written form, nor should it. If you want me to think all of these teenagers are utter f***ing morons, mission accomplished. (I can still see the panels in Ultimate Spider-man #6. Those were the exact panels! HATED IT. Couldn’t stand it.  Which leads into….

Quote
So that style or having panels that show a face and then another two or three that show the same face without change ... I loved that as well as it showed you the pacing he is using. Sometimes people say nothing and the flow has to be there. I liked that about Bendis. Others, not so much
 Grin.
Know what this artsy guy thought? I thought it was lazy as shit. I thought it was a way to cheat panels and create page length so they could publish every 20 days. How else do you think Bagley maintained his schedule as he did? Reuse panels again and again again. Talking head shots without background or settings.

Now, this is not me calling Mark Bagley a bad artist. NOT EVER. Guy has always been one of my favorites ever since he did backups in Mark Gruenwald’s Captain America stories. He helped introduce Diamondback! Cool

But to me, I ‘saw behind the curtain’ on how they published USM so quickly…and I felt cheated by it. But whatever; that’s what they wanted to do, they did it with high success and acclaim, so who am I to say I’m right or anything? I just didn’t see enough meat with my potatoes.

Quote
But I may not read as fast as you. And your time between panels may not be the same as my time, so when we go from panel to panel, your sense of time may be tons different. I think using static images helps set that pacing. But hey ... Just my opinion.
 Wink .
Damn, that’s just one great kernel of knowledge there. Wonderful thought! I just want to ruminate on that. Cool thinking!!

Quote
Having Norman be allowed to do anything close to that is crazy. But is it that much more crazier than Lex for President?

Point taken. The only <weak> counterpoint I’ll say is that move always seemed to be in Lex’s wheelhouse…so much that they copied Lex as much as they could in Norman. Do I get my No-Prize? Grin

Quote
But I also thought having Norman get away with all that and be a power was stupid, but THAT is not what Secret Invasion was about. The IDEA of Secret Invasion as an event is great. Skrulls have been on Earth fro a long time, in hero form at times and they are coming in force. The overall story was very good. There are parts that suck ass. Like using it as a way to bring Bobbi Morse back  Cheesy
 Cheesy
If anything, I loved Avengers the Iniative during this time, because man, did they mess with you about who was or wasn’t a Skrull. Great stuff in the title during that time. But no, it seemed such a great idea, and the Skrulls could have done everything…if they didn’t unhide themselves and just slug it out with people. Poor ending, that. Not sure still what I think of the ‘it was a holy prophecy of their gods’ idea about it.


Quote
Civil War was written horrendously out of character by Millar, but the idea and story behind it ... man, come on, that is great. And, like a good event should, it had repercussions for years afterwards. THAT is an event. Yes characters voices were seriously bad, happens a lot sadly, but the even ... blew my socks off. I bitched and moaned about how "That is not what Cap would do" for months ... and then I look back and go ... "Wow, what a great story"
 Smiley
Yes, the idea and story behind it, that was great. No denial here. None whatsoever. And it truly was an event that made changes for so long in so many ways. But… they had no true way to make it happen honestly, through good writing…but they did it anyways. That’s what bugs me.

Would Ultimate Cap have acted that way? I think I can say  ‘oh yes’. (I read Ultimates 1 & 2; he seemed that way, right?). But this wasn’t U-Cap. This was 616 Cap. I just couldn’t believe it. I’m not even trying to say  ‘That’s not how my Cap would act.’ I feel a little bit right saying ‘I don’t think that’s how Cap, Tony, or Reed would act.’

But yeah…underpinings for a great story.

Quote
Now, it makes it seem like all I've done is hate on Marvel for 15 years...and it does seem that way. From my POV, I've watched the 'Marvel Way' become something that doesn't include me. And that sucks. Because I do want to give them my money.  Grin

Eh, again, you're a DC guy. it happens.  Wink Grin
Hata’ with the labels! Tongue SmileyGrin

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Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2015, 10:16:31 AM »

Know what this artsy guy thought? I thought it was lazy as shit. I thought it was a way to cheat panels and create page length so they could publish every 20 days. How else do you think Bagley maintained his schedule as he did? Reuse panels again and again again. Talking head shots without background or settings.


Wait, so you honestly think it was purely a publishing tool? A "trick" to get the book out monthly? Come on, man.  Grin Okay, yes, someof it was, but they could have just done what they are doing now and make the panels huge to fill the space or have no background at all inside each and every panel of importance (I'm looking at you Greg Land  Angry). No they were almost always small as shit panels, used to only promote the passing of time or, when lacking background, a useful tool to deal with the way Bendis wanted 300 panels. I can't blame a guy for that. Sorry. A head without a background such as a picture or people walking behind the talker  ... when you have to draw as many as he did ... that's kinda nit picking I feel.

And mostly, when the static picure was used it had purpose. In movies you can control the pacing. You set the timing, but in comics there is no way to do that. Like I said prior, people read at different speed. One "trick" is to repeat a panel or five to show the time passing in a way you intend. Go back and read the issues in question again and don't think of it as a way to be fast or "cheat", but as a tool of the writer.

Heck, Bagley is fast enough to have a monthly title without doing such things. He is old school. Much like an early Perez who can bang out monthly isue without any problem and still take a week off a month.  Grin You don't think the great backgound artist Preez would be like "Fuck this, just a blank wall behind talking guy #45. I'm beat"
 Cheesy

But as for just the blank repeating panels ... much like the repeating dialog, the repeating panel is to show shock, bewilderment or just plain loss for words. The passing of time.

Now as someone that can appreciate monthly comics coming out monthly  Cheesy, I for one also have no issue with the use of repeating panels to save time, when all that needs changing in them is an addition of a bird flying in the back-ground, someone handing in a piece of paper or any other countless ways in which we humans do not move for seconds at a time.
 Smiley
I'm not at all angry when 1, 2 or 6 of the 93 panels in a book is the same as the one prior. It's just not that important to me. But it seems to really get under your skin, so ... I mean ... it's cool.
 Smiley

Quote
Having Norman be allowed to do anything close to that is crazy. But is it that much more crazier than Lex for President?

Point taken. The only <weak> counterpoint I’ll say is that move always seemed to be in Lex’s wheelhouse…so much that they copied Lex as much as they could in Norman. Do I get my No-Prize? Grin

Ha, maybe ... oh hell, sure  Smiley (I still don't like either however ... OR MAGNETO JOINING THE X-M ... *pant,pant,pant* ... okay, never-mind.
 Grin

Hata’ with the labels! Tongue SmileyGrin

Well only because it is true.  Smiley It is not a shot across your bow or anything. We are all effected by our youth. Comics or not. You grew up reading more, or at least liking more, DC related books. It is not surprising that you tend to lean a certain way. Not that DC is better or Marvel is shit, but that your thinking is DC based. Just as mine is Marvel and a guy that grew up reading Dark Horse is Dark Horse minded. And thoise that grew up thinking that the 90's comics were good are ... well ... we won't speak of those poor soils.
(I kid, I kid)
 Cheesy Cheesy

There is nothing wrong with labels, especially in this manner.

You're a DC guy. Just as growing up or living in/near Green Bay has made you Packers guy. That doesn't mean that you can't enjoy watching other teams play.
 Wink

EDIT - Dear lord, I really have to try and just stop coming here after taking my Morphine. I am just all over the damn place. Sorry for the incoherence, my fellows.
 Cheesy Undecided Angry
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 10:58:58 AM by Perry » Logged
Jimmy T
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« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2015, 10:24:02 PM »

I ran out of time and steam for this discussion, methinks.  Wink Cheesy
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Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2015, 02:24:27 AM »

Well, it happens  Wink Smiley
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