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Author Topic: Beginnings of a Failed Experiment (ie the soft-boot)  (Read 1403 times)
Jimmy T
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« on: August 23, 2015, 09:00:55 PM »

Heh. As I post this, I only just noticed it no longer says New 52, but New DC Universe as a forum name.  Cool

So! My own displeasure with things causes me to find people that agree with me. And it's not too hard either. Dissatisfaction with this DCYou can easily be found. I've read where some editorialists (ie, website owners, I won't necessarily call them journalists) posit that this experiment is floundering. Super T-shirt-Man has not latched on with readers. Is James Gordon a young man/contemporary of Bruce Wayne that he looks like he does now? Is this noteworthily so, unhinged inter-company continuity a bad thing?

Are any of the new books, reboots, and turned-on-their head ideas still selling? At all? I ask this of Fate, Doomed, Omega Men, Prez (which we know is no shortened in its entirety), Martian Manhunter, Black Canary?

All of these are essentially using the labels of the titular character, but have mostly become Elseworlds versions of themselves. Since the current Ollie is not anything like any Ollie of pre-New, this Dinah Lance is NOT anything like any Canary anyone knows from anywhere. I assume Fate is turned on his head as well. J'onn is certainly being made to be something else, but that story could still work with classic iterations. I have no idea if this Barry is anything like any other Barry, cuz well, this Barry seems like some kind of lame feeb. Seriously, the guy himself is boring in his life. I like adventures of the Flash, but Barry Allen is not the draw.

I'll say that I enjoy the dichotomy of what GL, and what Lost Army is currently. WW I'm very put off from right now.

Yet, no kidding, I'm ready to be done with Superman...the solo title. Gene Yang, if I have the name right, wrote the utterly stupidest non-reveal identity hiding work I've ever seen. Issue 43 is bad. Terrible bad. Like, the Spider-man comic that named Peter as the Clone kind of bad. I can't even sell any of those issues from before, and if you look at lots of Johns/Romita Jr on ebay, they sell for crap. No one is paying attention to this or buying it (of course, I'll look at sales numbers in a few days then be proven wrong Wink ).

I don't want this to be an entire bitch fest, but I want to say that I'm....perturbed. Does it cause me worry that me, the hardcore comic fan, is getting ready to walk away from more mainstream DC books? Does the average, trying things out for the first time comic fan really driving their sales figures right now? Who is being brought in or kept right now? Those figures I'm curious of.

As of right now, my interest in this soft reboot is severely waning. My interest in this burdgeoning Valiant universe that has been building over the last 4 years really has me stoked. I'm enjoying trying and reading other comics from Image and Dark Horse as well. I'm enjoying reading old books again, some times for the very first time. After Marvel's re(non)boot, I'm all about....3-4 titles, I believe. And I'm waiting for trade (which will release the same time as MU, so I can read it and then know if I want the trade at home.  Cheesy ).

Hmm...I feel I went all over the place, but I had to wander in thought as I have no friends in real life reading anything current either. So, I needed my thoughts to bubble up and go all over.

I think the largest point to come away from this can be summed up as so: Has DC done well in this new treatment of their properties regarding old and new fan interest and have their sales show it to be so?
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Jimmy T since 2001
Jimmy T
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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2015, 09:02:10 PM »

And then my other thought is this....will they ever go back to a time of the pre-New 52? They've certainly opened up that opportunity, and for changes that has occurred to that time period due to Convergence.
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Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2015, 07:00:26 AM »

First ... and easiest thing first -

And then my other thought is this....will they ever go back to a time of the pre-New 52? They've certainly opened up that opportunity, and for changes that has occurred to that time period due to Convergence.

Anything is possible. They brought in Pandora originally just for that reason, regardless of what they say. All the shop owners knew it. All the fans knew it. Dc knew it, but they just refused to say she is the easy out if they ever need to "reset the reset". And now ... yeah, cover thy butt

Okay ... and I am not sure I can tackle this now as I haven't been awake long and only on my second cup of coffee  Grin ... onto you first comment -

First off please know I am not trying to slam you in anyway, shape or form. Okay? Smiley Having said that why do you keep calling this new (old) DC publishing plan an experiment?

I've read where some editorialists (ie, website owners, I won't necessarily call them journalists) posit that this experiment is floundering.

It's been years now. Just curious. Maybe it is just part of you lamenting the past?

... Is this noteworthily so, unhinged inter-company continuity a bad thing?

Kinda lost me here. Not sure what ya mean. Even in context with came before. 'splain, please Lucy?  Grin

Are any of the new books, reboots, and turned-on-their head ideas still selling? At all? I ask this of Fate, Doomed, Omega Men, Prez (which we know is no shortened in its entirety), Martian Manhunter, Black Canary?

EDIT -

 Undecided Undecided

I just deleted a lot of what I wrote below. I went through past sales of stuff and sent a lot of time doing research. However, I found myself treating this like a court session instead of a good discussion about comics. I think it is just too early for me to do this right now. Most of what I wrote, upon re-read, sounded waaaaay too aggresive, when I honestly meant all of my words to come out in a totally different way. I was just trying to talk but it just ... my words just read not friendly. And I meant them to be. I will try to come back to this later, but I don't want to sound like I sounded here just seconds ago.

What can I say, Jimmy, you bring out the debater in me.  Smiley Sometimes I can't control how I respond (or how it appears I have responded) and I don't know if it is the meds I am taking or you just bring it out in me  Cheesy Cheesy Wink, but I don't ... ever ... want to sound like a jerk or an ass to you, so I deleted this crap and will/may try again later.

Peace, my bortha !!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 07:03:32 AM by Perry » Logged
Jimmy T
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2015, 07:22:35 AM »

I think this is easier if I handle it in reverse Grin
Quote
Are any of the new books, reboots, and turned-on-their head ideas still selling? At all? I ask this of Fate, Doomed, Omega Men, Prez (which we know is no shortened in its entirety), Martian Manhunter, Black Canary?

EDIT -

 Undecided Undecided

I just deleted a lot of what I wrote below. I went through past sales of stuff and sent a lot of time doing research. However, I found myself treating this like a court session instead of a good discussion about comics. I think it is just too early for me to do this right now. Most of what I wrote, upon re-read, sounded waaaaay too aggresive, when I honestly meant all of my words to come out in a totally different way. I was just trying to talk but it just ... my words just read not friendly. And I meant them to be. I will try to come back to this later, but I don't want to sound like I sounded here just seconds ago.

What can I say, Jimmy, you bring out the debater in me.  Smiley Sometimes I can't control how I respond (or how it appears I have responded) and I don't know if it is the meds I am taking or you just bring it out in me  Cheesy Cheesy Wink, but I don't ... ever ... want to sound like a jerk or an ass to you, so I deleted this crap and will/may try again later.

Peace, my bortha !!

Some times I like to 'think out loud' and put out as much concentrated thought as well as unfounded ideas to see what sticks, to see what jives with other and to see what resonates or puts off others. So yes, I do look for the debater. Wink

I hold some solid ideas, I have my beliefs in what I see to be happening for character/comic progression, on the entertainment and professional side as well. However, I don't hold them to be fact, and I invite other thoughts and opinions to help me mold a new way of thinking. I invite times to be proven wrong and to be led to better ideas.

Also, much of this was just musing. I like seeing what ideas come from free form thinking-but, no matter what, these are ideas I had.


Quote
First ... and easiest thing first -

And then my other thought is this....will they ever go back to a time of the pre-New 52? They've certainly opened up that opportunity, and for changes that has occurred to that time period due to Convergence.

Anything is possible. They brought in Pandora originally just for that reason, regardless of what they say. All the shop owners knew it. All the fans knew it. Dc knew it, but they just refused to say she is the easy out if they ever need to "reset the reset". And now ... yeah, cover thy butt

Okay ... and I am not sure I can tackle this now as I haven't been awake long and only on my second cup of coffee  Grin ... onto you first comment -

First off please know I am not trying to slam you in anyway, shape or form. Okay? Smiley Having said that why do you keep calling this new (old) DC publishing plan an experiment?

OH! I see how I was unclear. I did not wish to refer to the New 52, but in this post-Convergence DC You branding that has only been out for 3 months now. This soft reboot that shook up everyone's status quo after the lackluster Convergence mini that saw all the titles go through some revolutionary changes.

New 52 sold very well for DC, made some big waves here and there, but eventually seemed to settle back down to pre-New 52 numbers, and with the move to LA, it seemed to them that another shake up was what was needed to bring their sales numbers around again.


Quote
... Is this noteworthily so, unhinged inter-company continuity a bad thing?

Kinda lost me here. Not sure what ya mean. Even in context with came before. 'splain, please Lucy?  Grin

This is DC's 'whatever a writer wants to do in their titles is just fine. Continuity between titles isn't necessary, or really beholden to either.' To speak on:

-Green Lantern: Hal has no ring in GL, is the only one in the universe, running around with Krona's prototype will gauntlet, but is the GL in Hitch's Justice League work.
-Hitch's Justice League-Bruce Wayne as Batman, a normal Hal GL, Superman in costume and with powers, WW in classic duds.
-Johns Justice League-is not Hitch's JL, but all the primary players are involved as you would expect.
-and now I can't remember too much else of what's going on, I just know the mandate is 'tell good stories' and don't bother about making it fit into a shared universe anymore.

And probably most of this will come out in the wash and won't really matter. For now, titles are just titles, and away we go is the best way to look at it.

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Jimmy T since 2001
Jeff
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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2015, 09:09:54 AM »

I'm with you on the new reboot Jimmy.  My interest in pretty much all of DC has gone by the wayside.  I still pick up a few - Batman (more out of habit than my interest in a Jim Gordon Batman), Flash (just to see the reverse flash story), Martian Manhunter (which I probably will only read the 1st arc), and Grayson (the one title consistently holding my attention).

It wouldn't surprise me if I eventually fade all of these off my pull list at some point.

I'm much more into Image/Valiant books and Marvel, thanks to MU, at the moment. 
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"If I could go back in time and like tell 11 year old me that like not only do you get to go to Comic Con but you go every year.  So much so that you get greeted by Stan Lee when you show up.  And 11 year old me would be like - How did we get so fat?" - Kevin Smith
Jimmy T
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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2015, 09:11:44 AM »

Ha! Here's an article for just what I was going on about!!!

http://www.newsarama.com/25643-just-how-loose-is-dc-s-new-loose-continuity.html

The funny thing, I Read through a lot of the comments. Now, that's not a true cross section representative of all comic fandom, but there are plenty of people there who really are enjoying the DC stuff right now.

I can be totally honest too-so much of this does get wrapped up in how I feel about Superman.  Cheesy Who am I kidding, really? LOL

I'm not that bothered about the 2 different Justice Leagues-after all, when I pick them up off the shelf to read, I don't cross reference them with other titles to 'know' what's going on. Which, why for a while, I've enjoyed more of DC's events for leaving their individual's titles narratives alone, since Marvel kept bothering all their stuff for many years through many events (but they haven't sinned like this significantly for a while, so kudos to them).

So, I DO like being able to pick up a trade off the shelf and read it. And Love it.

I just want the rules of your universe to make sense, as you have 3 top talking heads that believe all little different things about what's going on. And its still hard to know that "my" Superman from pre-FP no longer has stories being told about his life. This guy is still Superman...but he's a different guy. I guess if I can still go back and watch Superman The Movie or Adventures of Lois & Clark when I want, I can go back and read those stories...I'm just sad they are done with. Sad
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Jimmy T since 2001
Jimmy T
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2015, 07:14:02 PM »

And then there's THIS from today:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/08/25/dc-tells-editors-stop-batgirling-go-back-to-meat-and-potatoes/

Things may (or may not) be very good in DC land, and recent changes may be immediately stopped and put back to something more recognizable.

Now, not that the characters should always be stuck in a general preconceived notion, but when changes occur, it should be along the lines that it evolved from story progression, not just to throw stuff out to see what sticks.
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Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
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« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2015, 02:55:36 PM »

I am just over Superman. I tried it. I did. I honestly pushed out all my Supes hate, but ... no.

I don't like this guy.

I hate this "Nova" shit.

I hate Superman.

However, I am enjoying almost all of the "DCYou" stuff. Especially Omega Men (as you all know), but Cyborg is good, the two mini series, Bat-Mite and Bizzaro are top notch (well, Bizzaro is, Bat-Mate is ... okay, but fun)

For the Justice League side of things - I am loving it all except for United. The first two issues of that series was just ... horrible. Gonna try again as I like the new team each month aspect.

For Bats - Diggin it all. We are Robin, Robin, hell, even this new (semi-new) writer on Catwoman has made that tile readable. And that should be awarded with something
 Cheesy

All in all I am have a much better time with DC now, around issue 43 for most titles, than I was around issues 28 so I don't share the same feelings as a lot of DC fans I guess as I am ... not as connected with them? Maybe?

I don't know. I don't see reason for gloom. Sales are up more than they were two years ago (at least on the couple titles I checked a few days ago) and DC is testing more. I like it. I even like it for titles I don't like.
 Grin
But I am also not reading any titles that made changes that are just out of someones ass IE Canary as a Punk Rocker. I get the idea, and I like they took a chance and people dig on it, but it just aint for me. The changes I enjoy, just like Jimmy, are the ones that come naturally from the flow of a character or a story. Changes in Omega Men and Manhunter and Cyborg and the like not only adds a twist to some very old characters, it adds a twist that makes snse

I want to go on, but dinner is ready, so ... screw this, I'm hungry
 Grin
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Jimmy T
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« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2015, 06:39:23 AM »

Truly appreciate the perspective from that side, too, Perry.

I hope I'm not purely spinning doom and gloom, but I'll also say that these practices are not what brought me into the full array of the DC universe to enjoy either. Therein, for me, is where there happens to be a bit of a problem personally.

And now I have to go look up sales figures just to have a partial idea of how things are going on the direct market (wish digital was included somewhere!)
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Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2015, 07:11:56 AM »

I hope I'm not purely spinning doom and gloom, but I'll also say that these practices are not what brought me into the full array of the DC universe to enjoy either. Therein, for me, is where there happens to be a bit of a problem personally.

Totally understand that, buddy.

And now I have to go look up sales figures just to have a partial idea of how things are going on the direct market (wish digital was included somewhere!)

Amen!!! I know, according to a guy that use to work for Image and has since returned to the iFanboy podcast, that digital sales were not that big. Now that was awhile ago and his comment was only for Image (if I recall), but he said it was around 5% (Again, I think ... maybe Jeff can confirm or correct?)

However, that is Image and I think there is a lot of digital buyers that still buy the paper version of Image titles for the resell value alone. Or the hope there-of. I know when I was buying floppies that those few Image titles that hit, can really make up the cost of spending money on the ones that didn't. And they hit for more than the DC/Marvel titles (well except for Batman  Cheesy) Taking that into account, I think Image misses out on a lot of digital sales due to those speculators.

But all that said, I am going out on a limb and saying that digital represents about 10% of sales, depending on the title of course as I think a lot of people, including myself, are more often trying #1's digitally as it is just easier to do. I know I have tried quite a few with-in the past 3 weeks, to my wallets detriment as I have since added 99% of the ones I have tried to my pull. I wasn't joking in the "What are ya getting" thread when I said my list of Image (along with DC and Marvel) is pretty large. And most of that came from just saying "Hey, a title I haven't read before. Let me just try issue number one. I will just try the first issue that is all"

That is how I end up now ordering issue #5 of Kaptara, #7 of Postal, #12 of Outcast ... and so on and so on
HAHA

So if just one quarter of the people are like me (and lets face it, most comic buyers are like most comic buyers  Cheesy) then digital sales have to be doing than 5% at Image now.
 Wink
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