HR Boards
March 29, 2024, 11:10:07 AM*

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Gladiator 2 premieres in theaters November 22, 2024!
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Books without pictures - Wheel of Time  (Read 23378 times)
Jimmy T
Global Moderator
HR Celestial
*****
Posts: 5579



« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2014, 06:05:42 PM »

This is true to some extent, and I know you kinda touch on this more with the "need to live" statement, but while the fans create the funds that keep you writing, as an artist wouldn't you be writing regardless? If you truly love the craft of writing, would you still not write if no-one was paying you to? The artist is the creator and if the creation is not happening in his head, how can he produce?

Also, and more to your ire, do you suddenly owe the fans a timetable because they bought your wares? I don't think so. I mean unlike, say, Kevin Smith (not to say they are equals  Grin) who is hired to produce a "work of art" within a certain time period, novelists are not required (except by maybe their publisher) to create anything. Especially if the "voice" is not there.

I am just being the Devil's advocate, as I am not in anyway invested in these books like most of his fans are. so take my questions as more curiosity than defense of actions.
 Grin
 
Oh no; I just love a good talk. I have no intention of yelling, and have no problem sounding out more of my thoughts here. Some is definitely ire, so I think is founded on something proper; but we'll see!

Yes, I'd like to think any true artist would do what they want to do without any compensation at all...but to live with your art, to share your art, and to be, well, rewarded for your art in appreciation and money to keep doing that art? Sounds like the best of both all worlds. Not that he is only doing it for the money (which I don’t believe, and rather trust in), but it’s a helluva bonus. Even if the books sold like crap, getting them published and have some people read and enjoy, I’d think that would be the best in the world.

Owe a timetable? No, not a pure timetable. But the business of it usually means an editor/publisher saying “cool here’s the advance. See the book in 3 years you say? Cool, glad to hear.”

“Hey George, it’s been 4 years, buddy, what’s up? Another year? At least….? Well, you’ve done well by us, so okay! See you then!”

“GEORGE. 5 years now. What’s your plan? Is there a plan?”…

Okay, I digress. 

For me, personally, it’s about how I think you carry yourself as a professional then. Think on Joe Maduireia. Battlechasers #4 ever come out? Every time I now see his name on a book, I think “gonna be late, gonna be delayed, gonna be taken over by another artist. I pass on him.

This is for me, (obviously). There is no rule, nor should there be, but it does all go to inform my opinion of your work. It’s honestly hard to rectify as well. GRRM has said that 10 years after the last book, no one is going to care at all when they were published. No one.

Because the dead who don’t get to read it won’t have a voice of complaint. Wink HA!

Quote
....  What you don't have to do is write to the fans expectations. What you do have to do is not tell them to go fuck themselves, I'll write when I'm gawddamned good and ready and you'll fucking like it when I do, you ungrateful shit sack full of maggots.

Okay, now if he has said anything close to this, then he has gone over-board, of course, but if by him not producing something you want is making you feel this way, well, that is kinda on you, buddy.  Wink Again, though you feel as a writer he owes you something, as a creator or artist he owes you nothing. He put his art out, you bought it. He can choose to put more out when he wants.

I tried to find the NotaBlog of his about it. He wasn’t as crass as I was (by any means) but he told all his readers to stop asking him about the book, mentioning the book, etc. If there’s anything to say, he’ll say it. Until then, knock it off. I KNOW it’s a written post, so it’s hard to read inflection, but I believed it was a post in anger as well.

Quote
I'm sorry; if he started a story for himself only, he should have kept it to himself. Otherwise, shit and get off the pot.

 Cheesy, okay, that is just fan ire and nothing more. That is kinda crazy, Jimmy. He should have kept it to himself? What artist does that? Come on man. That's just fan anger
 Grin

Well sure, but there’s some kernel of truth to it. I’ve had plenty of people in my life start things to have it fail around them due to their sloth. Or whatever. And I’m met by disappointment in that. I’ll put some of that onus on him(GRRM) as well.  I realize not everyone writes the same, or is as busy with only one project, but still. Disappointment sets in. I’m a farmer’s son, so when I see someone not working like they really could be, I have thoughts as to how hard they really are working on it.

Money, though a very happy bonus, is not the goal of every artist.

Oh, fully agreed.

Quote
A Song of Fire and Ice (as it's properly called, once upon a time) is now something that belongs to a world greater than GRRM's study. You can finish it with great fanfare, you can finish it with an awful ending, or bad writing; but you now owe it to all to finish it. It's bigger than you, all will love you for doing it, but it's not "yours" anymore.

Nope. Totally disagree with you here. Not playing Devil's advocate on this, I just straight up disagree. Politely  Grin

If I create something as an artist, on my own, without a company paying me to do so, you have NO right to it or any expectations of it. None. I don't care how much you CHOOSE to support me. I owe you nothing but a big thank you for spending your money on the product I have given you already. You support me for the work I have done, not for the work I will do.

I have no problem disagreeing with you here. On a level of saying that “Yes, we do not have a contract being buyer and purchaser that I NEED to do anything further for you” I can hold true to that.

But I believe there is more to it than that. Personal work ethic. Self respect.  The desire to craft. More than anything, you owe it yourself to finish. Do work. I’m having a hard time at this exact moment to put what I feel into a written conversation (talking this through is way more fun and spot on than the cut and pasting, but we do what we can do. Wink )

I “own” the story in my heart. In how I want Lannisters to get comeuppance. In how I want Jon’s future to be. In how I dream of what will happen to Westeros with Daeneryes’ return.  That part is mine. He can’t take that away…but he could ruin it, too true. As an artist, I’d hate to have that happen.

Gregariously saying, if he wouldn’t finish it, declare it to hard, or just walk away, I’d call him a failure and the story a terrible missed chance. But a failure still.

Much like ‘Lost’, due to the ending, I warn people away from EVER watching the show. Sure, it had some good moments, but all in all, I find it to be a terrible complete picture, and that has ruined the entire affect. Before you ask “well, what if GRRM finishes it and the story ending is crap?”

Well, then it’s crap, but at least he finished! At that point, I take the story and make of it what I think and feel about it. But if he wouldn't finish the story at all....I may warn people off of it. It's something I think about, to be honest.

Quote
Perry, this wasn't an attack against you. I just wanted to soapbox a bit for frustrations from the GRRM camp. And the families of Shuster and Siegel going after DC comics.

Understand, Never took one word towards me ... and I hope I didn't seem like I was going after you too much.  Smiley

Not at all! Having art discussions is one of my favorites! *blows the dust off his BFA in Drawing & Illustration*

And MAN; is this easier to do if I just cut this to a Word file and edit it there!
Logged

Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
Just an old man
Administrator
HR Celestial
*****
Posts: 13807



« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2014, 07:27:34 PM »

Okay, this is getting too out of hand for me to keep quoting you ... hahaha ... just too much ...  Cheesy, so I will try to just post a couple replies as I get to reading your posts.
 Grin

For the most part I think you are coming at this as "If this was me" but you can't do that. While I understand your frustration as a fan and a lot of this stems from that, you are not an artist. Sorry to break that to ya  Grin. Now I don't mean that in a bad way, I mean, neither am I, and what I mean by that is ... I'll save that for the end actually ... let's just say you're trying to put the fan side of an argument (or desire) inside the head of an artist and the fact is the two are totally separate ways of thinking. Yes, it is easy to say "What I would do ..." and maybe you would, heck, many an artist may also, but not this one.

His artistic drive to create is different than your desire to read what he has created. Now whether that is just because he is an artist I can't say, but I can more easily accept it, it seems
 Wink
And again, though I understand the reference, Joe Mad does not come close to this situation. Again, he is creating to get paid. That is a bit different than an artist that isn't.

And as far as him asking fans to stop, I don't blame him, you would get tired of it too. Again, it is like you (the fans in general, not YOU  Smiley) seem to think he owes you something that he most certainly does not. (Well, a little you  Grin). And honestly, if I wasn't feeling the drive, or I was not in the mood to create more, that would piss me off as well. Especially if he is frustrated because the voices he wants to write are currently silent and he just can't pull them out. Asking him for more is just adding to his own frustrations.

Never forget, the worst thing an artist can ever do is be false about what he is trying to do and rush the work. Never rush the work. Feel the work.

It's sorta like a band. A band puts out 4 albums that just knocks your socks off and then they tell Rolling Stones Magazine that they are working to make the next album even better. But then, years go by and no album. I, as a music fan, would never want a band I love to rush through some shit just to make a deadline or ease the fans desires to hear something from them. It kills that work itself and the creative artist as well. Hell, I hate that I have had to wait forever for Tool, time and time again, but I could never dream of rushing that creative process, nor feel anger that they are not giving me an album in a certain amount of time. Hell no, do what you got to do to knock my socks off. Take as much time as you want.
 Grin

And for sloth and your farmer's son work ethic, first of, glad to hear it  Cool but it's not about working to the end product with artists. they could work for years, mentally, or through trail and error or through countless problems and just because they are not producing a sell-able product doesn't mean they're not working. It is art, not really the same as tilling the field. You can't see work sometimes.

Now I am not saying this is the case with GRRM ... he could be a lazy bastard for all I know, but I also know some artist and ... well ... it's just different. It's why you are complaining about his delays instead of him saying you need to slow down. He is the writer.
 Grin
You see/need end results. I get it, but that is why you and I are posting here and not having HBO make a show out of our work. Different animal, my man. you can't equate it to you. It's not you. As much as you love it, it's not you. (Unless you are currently working on some grand opus .. then I respectfully change my tune)
 Grin

You are a guy that just got married, has a job, and going through life. The art is not your life, it's part of your life. It's different for you. And that's okay. It's different for most of us.
 Smiley
Logged

Avatar mash-up is from Ross Pearsall... and of course those that own the original characters Smiley
jedicow
HR Super Hero
*****
Posts: 863



« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2014, 02:58:34 AM »

I kinda see it a little of both ways.  so, let's say GRRM comes out before the first book in ASOI&F is released and says..."hey, I got this book coming out, I don't know if the story can be contained in 1 book and i'm not so sure I will ever finish it or write another one", then it's all on the reader to decide if he wants to invest the money and time in the story with the understanding that he/she may never see a resolution.  however, if GRRM comes out and says, "hey, I got this book coming out, it can't be contained in 1 book and I am planning on making it a trilogy.  no, wait...maybe 7 books." and the reader decides that, "hey, that sounds cool.  i'm going to read this and support it." then maybe the reader is owed what was promised.
Logged

Perry
Just an old man
Administrator
HR Celestial
*****
Posts: 13807



« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2014, 10:28:11 AM »

Absolutely, however if he came out at the beginning and said anything I would be surprised. And I doubt anyone would say "I may not finish it"
 Grin

I know he has since stated that he originally planned to make it a trilogy, but as he got closer to the end the characters really started to become alive and talk (creators finding the voice). But I doubt that "Trilogy plan" was released to anyone other than the publisher at first.

As far as what and when he promised what, I just need to look at the first book cover. It states "Book one of a Song of Ice and Fire". Though obviously that means there will be at least a book two, there is nothing there that says anything about a trilogy, or 5 books or 6 books or 100 books. Again, this guy created a world, put it out there and fans bought it. He then says hey, I think this needs 7 books to flush out these characters. So by doing that he owes something? He feels his creation that he started needs to expand and so now he is the fans bitch? I just don't understand people getting pissed that he has not giving them the rest of what he created on a time they deem necessary.

I thought my band analogy would be good enough, but ... yeah, sorry, I just don't get this. I guess it's just me.  Smiley

BURN THE BASTARD!!!!
 Grin

Logged

Avatar mash-up is from Ross Pearsall... and of course those that own the original characters Smiley
Jeff
Administrator
HR Celestial
*****
Posts: 13282



WWW
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2014, 11:49:44 AM »

I doubt it's intentional.  You'll find once you pass 40 that years start passing like days.  Things that you plan on doing tomorrow you don't get around to until next year but it only seems like a day passed.  Plus he's more than likely busy with the show which he also writes episodes for.
Logged

“If I could go back in time and like tell 11 year old me that like not only do you get to go to Comic Con but you go every year.  So much so that you get greeted by Stan Lee when you show up.  And 11 year old me would be like - How did we get so fat?”- Kevin Smith
Perry
Just an old man
Administrator
HR Celestial
*****
Posts: 13807



« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2014, 01:55:32 PM »

You'll find once you pass 40 that years start passing like days. 

Man this is so damn true  Cheesy
Logged

Avatar mash-up is from Ross Pearsall... and of course those that own the original characters Smiley
Jimmy T
Global Moderator
HR Celestial
*****
Posts: 5579



« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2014, 05:49:46 PM »

Well, coming back to the thread on a honeymoon day of pure relaxin'...all I have to add is great thoughts, great conversation, glad to have been here. Cheesy
Logged

Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
Just an old man
Administrator
HR Celestial
*****
Posts: 13807



« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2014, 04:07:09 PM »

I hope your honeymoon was filled with all types of fantasy, Jimbo!!!
 Grin
Logged

Avatar mash-up is from Ross Pearsall... and of course those that own the original characters Smiley
Perry
Just an old man
Administrator
HR Celestial
*****
Posts: 13807



« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2014, 02:24:04 PM »

For some reason, I have had a influx of Conan infatuation again. I have always enjoyed the character, but occasionally I can get a little too impulsive with the character and go on spending sprees that just come out of nowhere. Nothing bad or outrageous (not buying statues or anything expensive) but I will spend money buying book after book, knowing I will probably never get to them. I have had this before and when I get this way, the pull of Conan is strong and seemingly overtakes my buying desire for about a year. It is just odd.

Anyway, just hit these at the Used Book Store. Can't wait to not get to them
 Cheesy

« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 08:57:26 PM by Perry » Logged

Avatar mash-up is from Ross Pearsall... and of course those that own the original characters Smiley
Jimmy T
Global Moderator
HR Celestial
*****
Posts: 5579



« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2014, 02:44:15 PM »

I've always wanted to read the actual works of the original Conan by Robert Howard....and Burrough's Tarzan novels as well. Passed by Tarzan in the library just yesterday...and had to wait, as I already had a stack. But I WILL know what they are, some day!
Logged

Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
Just an old man
Administrator
HR Celestial
*****
Posts: 13807



« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2014, 09:00:47 PM »

I actually like Howard's Kull more than his Conan, not that I don't like his Conan  Grin I just prefer the way others write the Cimmerian. However, in all my years I have never given Howard's Solomon Kane any chance. In novel nor comic. I can't remember ever reading ANY story (short or otherwise) involving that character.
Logged

Avatar mash-up is from Ross Pearsall... and of course those that own the original characters Smiley
Perry
Just an old man
Administrator
HR Celestial
*****
Posts: 13807



« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2014, 01:24:17 PM »

Jimmy, my man, Terry Goodkind ... thumbs up or down?

A couple of days ago, while looking for more Conan books, and finding none  Sad I picked up the first book WIZARDS FIRST RULE for $2 at the used book store (well, free really as I have like $100 credit there  Grin) but didn't notice until I got home that this book, or series, is what the tv show LEGEND of the SEEKER is based on and I didn't really fall in love with that, but then again I don't remember why I didn't like it either.

Is either the Goodkind series or the show worth another or even a first look?

Thanks in advance, sir  Smiley

Logged

Avatar mash-up is from Ross Pearsall... and of course those that own the original characters Smiley
Jimmy T
Global Moderator
HR Celestial
*****
Posts: 5579



« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2014, 01:00:20 AM »

I loved the first 2 books to death.

3rd was also great. Not 1st book great, but yeah, still great.

4 left me wanting.

5th left me puzzled...couldn't quite put my finger on it...there was something about the tone I didn't like...

Went to find interviews, reviews, etc.

Terry Goodkind has drunk all the juice on the Ayn Rand/Fountainhead way of life. The 5th book was almost entirely all Atlas Shrugged jingoism. And I could recognize it the whole time!!!

I walked from the series. Had a friend keep up with it; kept going downhill for these fantasy readers.

I don't miss the chance to finish the series.

So, make of that what you will.
Logged

Jimmy T since 2001
Perry
Just an old man
Administrator
HR Celestial
*****
Posts: 13807



« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2014, 01:33:31 AM »

Well the Ayn Rand aspect does nothing to make me want to try it, that's for sure.  Undecided
Logged

Avatar mash-up is from Ross Pearsall... and of course those that own the original characters Smiley
Jeff
Administrator
HR Celestial
*****
Posts: 13282



WWW
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2014, 02:09:17 PM »

Well the Ayn Rand aspect does nothing to make me want to try it, that's for sure.  Undecided

Where as it makes me more interested!
Logged

“If I could go back in time and like tell 11 year old me that like not only do you get to go to Comic Con but you go every year.  So much so that you get greeted by Stan Lee when you show up.  And 11 year old me would be like - How did we get so fat?”- Kevin Smith
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

 B l a c k - R a i n V.2 by C r i p ~ Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines MySQL | PHP | XHTML | CSS