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FULL ENTERTAINMENT => OUT OF BOUNDS => Topic started by: Wringer on September 06, 2018, 09:26:24 AM



Title: NFL 2018
Post by: Wringer on September 06, 2018, 09:26:24 AM
Is everyone ready for some Football


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Perry on September 06, 2018, 11:34:38 AM
Yup

Even without my top running back
 ;D


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jeff on September 06, 2018, 02:52:05 PM
So what do you do if your kicker is the #2 most accurate kicker in NFL history?  If your the Dallas Cowboys, you cut him.    >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(



Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jimmy T on September 06, 2018, 06:45:00 PM
No kidding Jeff, wtf was that? I remember back, what, 11 years ago when they had a new kicker every 4 games after Chris Boniol was gone? What a joke!

That said, it's awesome that Aaron Rodgers is back!!!


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jimmy T on September 10, 2018, 03:15:43 PM
Aaron Rodgers!!!


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jimmy T on September 18, 2018, 01:26:24 PM
PERRY; those Steelers, man, WTF?!

JEFF; is Dak really any good? I question that from up North, but what's your opinion?


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Perry on September 19, 2018, 08:17:46 AM
PERRY; those Steelers, man, WTF?!

That awesome coaching!! Gotta love Tomlin. Oh Wait, no I don't.
I know it isn't all his fault, but he really just isn't a great game day coach. Never has been. Never gets the team set to play, just look at the history of HIS Steelers. Always a slow start. Each and every year we start slow, even if we squeak by and win, at the start of the year we suck.

Doesn't help that while our O Line is stacked with 1st and 2nd round talent that has produced good to decent quality, our front 7, also 1st and 2nd round filled for the most part, has NO true game changers. Now I like a lot of them, Watt, Willaims, Hargrove, Hayward ... not so much Bud Dupree, but we have no stand outs like we use to have. We don't have our Greg Lyods, Kevin Greenes, Joey Porters, or going way back, our Lamberts and Hams. Just no D LB or Lineman that says "Oh yeah, THAT is a Steeler Defense Guy.
 >:(

We score 30+ points against KC, but again, Started too late and again, no D guy.
 >:(
(Cleveland game is always tough for us it seems, for some reason. Especially in the rain)


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jeff on September 19, 2018, 03:43:07 PM

JEFF; is Dak really any good? I question that from up North, but what's your opinion?


This season will be the true test with no Dez (which Iím ok with) and no Jason Witten (whom I miss).


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jimmy T on September 26, 2018, 07:03:54 PM
Dak; ugh, not good at all. Not even once above 200 yards passing this season? Like watching awful Eli years

Big Ben-that was a total flop! :p

QB hit rule; go to hell NFL; that crap is going to make me stop watching. You have moved into the realm that the qb is not a football player, and cannot be tackled like other players with the ball. And yes, I realize the kickers have a special rule about being run into, but that position and play is unlike anything else in football. Is that ticky tacky thinking? Perhaps. But if the refs will call those hits like that on the qb, then I just want Clay Matthews to go up and hug the crap out of the qb, and stand still until daddy-ref blows a whistle to say the play is over, like in the Pro Bowl or preseason practices.

Either that, or Clay goes for the ball, and starts tearing the rotator cuffs of Buffalo's highest qb rookie draft pick and then Tyrod Taylor's arm this weekend too. Play the ball; play the arm. Tomahawk chops, karate slices the entire time.


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jeff on September 26, 2018, 07:28:22 PM
Might as well just put flags on the QB.


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Perry on September 27, 2018, 03:39:09 AM
Big Ben-that was a total flop! :p

 :D Yeah it was, and good on 'em too. After years of getting the shit knocked out of him and having no flags thrown, much like Cam Newton (who I admit loved seeing it happen to) because both of them are so large that an illegal hit on them doesn't look "as bad" ... hell yeah I was glad to see his ass flop like a trout in a skiff. Hope he does it more, to make up for all the years they looked at him and smiled while they kept their damn flag in their pocket!!!
 >:(
And flop or not it was an illegal hit. Can't "TOUCH" the QB's helmet  :P

Now ...

The QB, like the kicker is a special thing. You lose your QB and most chances, MOST chances (last years Eagles not withstanding) your season is over. Any other position you can still get by. Linemen, WR, TE, RB, CB, Safety (both strong and free), you name it. You lose a prime player there, the impact is not as glaring. See how I said not as glaring? Because that is what it is. Yes, every position you lose a grade-A player at is gonna hurt, but that QB is TV gold. That is why they go overboard with protecting the QB. And I get it.

The new rule is a sound one. I know you guys hate it and the way it is being called so do I, but that is the problem, they are calling it wrong. The rule is to stop all the clavicle breaks that happen when a 300 pound man forces his shoulder and weight into the QB while DRIVING HIM TO THE GROUND. Not tackling. This isn't about the tackle, it is about the way they tackle. The way they land. It is called the "Scoop and Pull". That first Clay Mathews tackle was an iffy call, but also had the right idea behind it ... at first. Should it have been called? Maybe not, but then again, if he wouldn't have picked up the QB's leg and tipped his body to look like he was adding force on the way down ... before changing the landing right at the end ... it maybe wouldn't have been called. At first it looked like he was gonna Drive the QB, but he ended up not doing it, which is why it shouldn't have been called, even though it looked like a good call prior to that ... he started it like a Scoop. But that kind of tackle, that Scoop and Pull is and should be illegal for QB hits. Period.

However, they are calling it every single time a guy lands on a QB and that is bullshit. The second Clay Mathews hit, the one against Washington, is a prime example of that. That one had no "drive" to the ground aspect, it was just a good, CLEAN, hard hit that should not have been flagged. But the refs see him "land on the QB" and the flags fly. The men in stripes need a refresher!

They are meeting to get the rule straight. It will be fixed, or at least better, this year.


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jimmy T on September 30, 2018, 07:01:03 AM
Oh yeah, Big Ben has been shlacked so many times in his career. But many like him, they stand in the pocket to the very end to make that throw.

I would almost say they have the rules to protect them doing so. Decades past, the qb folds up to protect himself going to the ground instead. Now? YOu just take the hit to make the pass. If that's how you want, or rather now, need to play the position, well, the position should know, AS A FOOTBALL PLAYER, you will get hit and tackled.

Instead, the rules keep codifying the position to allow them autonomy to not be hit at all.

I'm waiting for Clay to come at Allen today, hit the qb...and not take him to the ground, but just bear hug him and run backwards 5 feet, and just wait for Daddy Referee come blow the whistle to stop the play. Seriously; we are going there. And that's when it's really becoming 2 hand touch for the qbs.  :-X

But fully agreed; they are calling it wrong. Instead of allowing refs to use any judgement now, it's all supposed to be a clinical and robotic regurgitation of the rule, wihtout any human judgement going "eh, it was close, but not egregious, play on.

(I'd even argue that Cousins was bringing his leg up as well, just out of human movement and all. But tha's quibbling. ;)


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Perry on October 01, 2018, 07:52:34 AM
No pass rush, no LB coverage between 5 to 15 yards = Continual struggles on Defense
Poor offensive output? No freakin' idea
 >:( >:( >:( >:(


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Perry on October 08, 2018, 05:09:24 PM
Poor Mason Crosby.
Never felt worse for a kicker ... well, except a couple weeks ago when the Browns kicker did the same thing. Seems like a new trend with kickers missing a lot now.

I know they moved the extra point back, so I could see it if that was the kicks they are missing, but I mean made FG % is also down. It is like they moved the goal post back and put in on a pulley.
 :D


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jimmy T on October 09, 2018, 08:26:52 AM
Yeah that's a career day off the worst kind. It's in the record books now too.

But it barely disguises how bad the Packers are.

For the last 4 seasons, they have drafted secondary players in the first 2 rounds. And all but jettisoned all of them but 3 now. That also means they don't have any d linemen from before the 4th round, or useful wr.

And the game and their play shows it. Last year showed how dependent they are in Rodgers. This year shows how hard it is for Rodgers to shine turds.

I also feel that the old guard of the NFL Giants are fading to be replaced by the new standards. The Packers, the Steelers, the Patriots, the cowboys,  the Giants and even Seattle, Baltimore and San Diego too are falling behind the Rams, this new Philly, revitalized KC, and Carolina. Mind you, my appreciation isn't perfect. Minnesota goes up and down all the time, and the Saints still find new life, but the face of the NFL is looking quite different to me from 8 years ago.

Imagine when Brady, Brees, big Ben, Eli, and Rivers are done. Even Rodgers. There's a big gap after that.


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jeff on October 16, 2018, 02:48:57 PM
I loved it.  But I'm worried Sunday's Dallas vs Jacksonville game will just be a fluke in a season of disappointment.


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jeff on October 21, 2018, 05:13:32 PM
OMG the Cowboys suck.


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Perry on October 22, 2018, 02:52:17 AM
I liked what the kicker said after the Cowboys loss. While the rest of team, and my boy Dave  ;) (love ya broham), was bitching about a blown call, (which it wasn't, he obviously moved the ball after he was set) the kicker went all "man up" and said something like -
The penalty did nothing to me. It didn't effect me at all. I could have made the kick, I just didn't.

Nice to hear that kind of thing

Wasn't nice being on the phone for almost an hour with a pissed off and very drunk Cowboys fan though.
 :D :D


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jimmy T on October 28, 2018, 05:16:46 PM
OMG the Packers suck.

*quoting Jeff

I think McCarthy may be coaching his way out of a job after this year. A vanilla fucking offense, ignoring the run *(which accounted for TWO touchdowns on drives against Rams today; but ignored entirely when the Rams started catching up!)* and just flat out holding onto poor players (Cobb, Montgomery) who just can't produce.


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jeff on January 07, 2019, 05:25:00 PM
Man.  The poor Bears kicker.  I really felt bad for him.  Good luck finding a job next year.   ???


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Perry on January 13, 2019, 06:18:55 AM
Sorry about the loss, Jeff. Told Dave before the game that if you guys can stop Gurley, who I didn't think was back to full speed or power yet (and he wasn't) your guys have a great shot to win. Didn't even think about CJ Anderson being such a force. But you guys were so good against the run all year I just knew if you could stop that aspect, you had it in the bag.
That front line of the Rams just pushed you guys around like no-one has done all year though. 250 yards rushing is hard to beat without turnovers.

Sorry buddy, but if you're gonna lose, at least lose early to get a better draft pick!
 ;)

All of the Realms teams are out now, yeah? Panthers, Packers, Steelers, Cowboys ... and ... and ... oh no... there is one team still in it.
The Damn Patriots!!!
 >:(

 ;D ;D ;D ;) ;) ;)

(and hey, isn't someone here a Saints fan? Or is that just an "I also like the Saints" kinda thing?)




Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jimmy T on January 13, 2019, 05:51:09 PM
Yeah, Wringer and his Patriots continue. (WRinger, right? I believe so, he's the Bruins fan!)

I'm sure someone will talk non-stop about it at some point, but it's not too often when both 1 and 2 seeded teams from both conferences make it to the Championship game.

Dammit Eagles. Where was the magic? Oh yeah, your entire defense was injured and missing from the game. eVeryone is going to go back and point to that declined challenge, the fake punt, and the forced interception as why the Saints won. Sigh...long week then!


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jeff on January 13, 2019, 06:42:54 PM
Thankfully I was out to dinner for my wife's birthday last night and didn't see the carnage.  I was DVRing it to watch today but somebody at the bar we were at spoiled the ending for us last night.  Glad they did as now I don't have to waste time watching it.  I had a lot of friends last week hoping the Bears would lose because they thought the Rams would be easier to beat than the Saints.  I thought they were nuts because we already beat the Saints this year and the Rams are really good this year.  I hate being right.

At least we made it one round closer this year.  Better than losing in the Wildcard weekend.

Looks like I'll be rooting for Kansas City since Mahomes was my Fantasy Football QB.


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jeff on January 13, 2019, 06:44:55 PM
I'm sure someone will talk non-stop about it at some point, but it's not too often when both 1 and 2 seeded teams from both conferences make it to the Championship game.

I was thinking about that today.  I'm starting to think we need to eliminate the bye week for the top 2.  Maybe add a couple of other wildcard teams so that everyone has to play each week.


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Perry on January 14, 2019, 03:35:01 AM
Dammit Eagles. Where was the magic? Oh yeah, your entire defense was injured and missing from the game. eVeryone is going to go back and point to that declined challenge, the fake punt, and the forced interception as why the Saints won.

Well, I know you can never count one play as the one that "lost the game" and I do feel bad for him, but one that last drive if Alshon Jeffery would have not let that pass go right through his hands, right into the defense gut, I think the 'Iggles' would have won that game ... as long as they would've scored with less than 4 seconds left so Brees didn't have time to go back down the field again.
 ;D

Thankfully I was out to dinner for my wife's birthday last night and didn't see the carnage.

WHAT??? You let your wife have a birthday during the playoffs? THE PLAYOFFS? You tell that woman she better learn to grow older AFTER the Super Bowl
 ;)
One main reason I married my wife was that her birthday is between February and September. Ya know, after the Superbowl and before Training Camp
 ;D

Looks like I'll be rooting for Kansas City since Mahomes was my Fantasy Football QB.

Funny how that works, yeah? I know Dave, another huge Cowboy fan ... way too much so ... became a fan of the Colts back when he had Manning as his Fantasy QB and now wants KC to win for the same reason as you.  :D
That is another reason why I refuse to have any Patriots or anyone from the AFC North on my fantasy team.
 :D :D


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Wringer on January 14, 2019, 09:51:17 AM
Go Pats


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Perry on January 14, 2019, 11:13:19 AM
Go Pats

 >:(



 ;) :)


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jimmy T on January 14, 2019, 07:09:25 PM
I'm sure someone will talk non-stop about it at some point, but it's not too often when both 1 and 2 seeded teams from both conferences make it to the Championship game.

I was thinking about that today.  I'm starting to think we need to eliminate the bye week for the top 2.  Maybe add a couple of other wildcard teams so that everyone has to play each week.

Funny thing is, I was damned wrong about how often this happens.

Happens almost every year.

Last time it didn't (I think I"m right) was 2013 with Baltimore. Sheesh. What an advantage!!


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jimmy T on January 15, 2019, 06:25:00 PM
Predictions!!!

Mine are simply based off hope.

Kansas City over Patriots (although, Brady is a cold weather QB, with LOTS of experience in it; Mahomes does not. However, if it's bad, and you need to pass, Brady's lack of zip on the ball could be a factor here.)

And....

Rams over Saints. I think the Rams can control the line of scrimmage on both sides (based off that Dallas game). The Eagles were taking it to Brees and the Saints before they lost both star d-lineman. No pressure, means Brees can have his way. I'd actually probably love the story as well of the Rams getting to the Superbowl as well as Brees making it there, so whomever wins, I'm pleased with!


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jeff on January 15, 2019, 08:19:37 PM
I've got the same as yours Jimmy.

KC over Pats - although I'm not confidant in this.  More of a "hope" than a prediction.

Rams over Saints - I think the Rams are the better team.


Now having said that - a Brees vs Brady Super Bowl would be something to watch.  I could get excited about that.


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jeff on January 20, 2019, 08:43:06 PM
Congrats Wringer!

Iíve decided now that the only way Dallas, Pittsburgh, or Green Bay are going to win a Super Bowl is to hire Bill Belicheck away from the Patriots.

I knew the game was over when they won the OT coin toss.

Iím going to go ahead and call it.

Pats beat Rams in the Super Bowl.



Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Perry on January 21, 2019, 03:04:08 AM
Congrats Wringer!

Yep, congrats.




Damn it



 ;D

Was hoping that Chiefs D would step up in the Playoffs or get lucky enough to hold off the Pats, but didn't happen.

That being said ... What do you think the NFL needs/will do about the horrible officiating from the last few years? With this year being the absolute worst I have ever seen, I still can't believe the two horrendous calls yesterday. One of which had no outcome on the game, really (the bullshit "Roughing the passer" call for precious Tom Brady), while the other did exactly what calls are never suppose to do and took a win from a team (That ludicrous NO interference call on the Rams). Do you think they will hire more people so they can hopefully discuss the calls or no calls, or something with a replay challenge for the coach when calls are missed? I mean something needs to be done. I know "bad calls" are part of the game, but the calls they are missing are ones that should never be missed ... or made (like the bullshit pass interference that the Steelers got in week 16!!!!!!!)
 >:(


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jimmy T on January 21, 2019, 06:23:34 AM
Well, and one of the retired refs said on the game cast (re: Brady's head hit), "if you don't actually see it, you shouldn't call it". So, that back judge saw the arm come down, and Brady's head move some-ish. I won't fault that judge that much, because, hey, I could not call these games the way they do. I'm just suprised someone else, watching for holds on the line, didn't see this non-hit and run over and say "it's incidental, not flag worthy."

But to have all eyes miss the only ACTIVE PART OF THE PLAY WHILE THE BALL IS IN THE AIR TOWARDS THE PLAYERS was utterly inexcusable.

If I remember right, in hockey, calls will come down from a booth/home center to tell the refs would could or should be changed if an error occurs.

Still, in football, I want the subjective nature to be there. Otherwise, every player needs to be analyzed by a crew every down to determine how close to breaking the rules each one does every single time.

But, a blown call like this has to be corrected. There can't be rules AGAINST a ref and his crew going 'crap, we blew it, its on the big screen, let's just call it now.' Refs get to make game time outs. Why can't they do it here? Allow them to go back and relook at something.

Saints didn't help themselves by only having a 14 yard second quarter. Or doing nothing after the first drive of the 3rd quarter either until the end. But that call directly affected the game's outcome.

And Chiefs? 32 yards in the first half shows you how close you came to, I don't know, POSSIBLY BLOWING THE PATRIOTS OUT OF THE WATER IF YOU WOULD HAVE PLAYED THE WHOLE GAME LIKE THE SECOND HALF.

But you didn't. And a gimme call on roughing Brady gets the Pats all the opportunity in the world to drive and score. Now, it didn't give the Pats the game, because they ground out and chewed up the Chiefs on the last drive in regulation, and all through OT. So, no cheating there; they simply outplayed the Chiefs.


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jimmy T on January 31, 2019, 07:34:01 PM
Go Rams.

St. Louis 37
New England 28


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jeff on January 31, 2019, 08:08:54 PM
Go Rams.

St. Louis 28
New England 37
Wringer 39 (beers in celebration)


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Perry on February 01, 2019, 04:50:10 AM
Go Rams.

St. Louis 38
New England 31
Wringer 2 boxes of Kleenex in commiseration of his Pats

(good stuff, Jeff  ;D had to jump in on that one)


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jeff on February 03, 2019, 08:34:57 PM
Congrats Wringer!


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jimmy T on February 03, 2019, 09:28:48 PM
Congrats Wringer!

Man you look at the 'dynasty' of Dallas in the 90s and you now think 'pfft.'

Sure, the 49ers had success, but measured against this? Nothing.

These Patriots. Wow.

That said, I'm trying to think of a Superbowl I enjoyed even less than this one. Maybe the Ravens/49ers; the score was higher, but there was so little to enjoy watching that game.

Seahawks/Broncos ranks up there too. Wait, Tampa Bay and Oakland Raiders was way worse.


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Wringer on February 04, 2019, 01:12:49 PM
yea...not a lot, if any, standout moments.  no real nail biting plays, just kind of humdrum.  now i enjoyed it and felt it was a pretty tense game but then i am a Pats fan, i'm sure the rest of the country fell asleep by the 3rd qtr


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jeff on February 04, 2019, 03:10:34 PM
It's amazing that Tom Brady by himself has won more Super Bowls than the Dallas Cowboys.  And the Green Bay Packers.  And he's tied with Pittsburgh.  One man has more titles than historical elite teams.  And he doesn't seem to be in decline either.  Just crazy.

I'm also always impressed how the Pat's never seem to panic or "hurry up" no matter how far behind they are.  They could be down three TD's with 2 minutes to go and they leisurely move down the field and can still win the game.  Since they were ahead, they seemed even more at ease in those last 2 minutes. 


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Perry on February 04, 2019, 05:09:32 PM
First off yes, congrats Wringer.
While do I hate it that the Patriots won, I am happy for you

And how about the massive score fest that was Superbowl 53, huh?

ZZZZzzzzzzz

I wonder how many people took the under???


It's amazing that Tom Brady by himself has won more Super Bowls than the Dallas Cowboys.  And the Green Bay Packers.  And he's tied with Pittsburgh.  One man has more titles than historical elite teams.

Well, first while I understand all the praise this guy gets, most is deserving, he is also one lucky ass SOB. I think Viniteri was more responsible for most of the Patriots Playoff wins and not sir Tom Brady, but hey, I am also a very, very bitter SOB ...
 :D :D

And Jeff, my boy Dave (also a Cowboys fan) brought something up to me today ...
Not only have the Patriots won 6 SB's now, the only time they have lost recently was to NFC East teams - Twice to NYG and once to Philly. That makes it even worse for Cowboys fans. He hates the Patriots even more than I do now
 :D :D


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jeff on February 04, 2019, 07:09:21 PM
That's right!  If the Cowboys had been there they would have WON!!!    (Ok.  Maybe not)


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jimmy T on February 06, 2019, 06:50:39 PM
And in Pats history of Superbowls, they have also lost to Chicago and Green Bay-got NFC Central! er, NFC North now. ;)

There's nothing I love more than to read how the actual defenses and offenses played in the Superbowl.

The Pats decision to play 6-0 as they called it-4 down linemen, 2 linebackers spread wide at the line, and a single safety/linebacker in the middle tight behind the line, and Quarters in zone when they played man to man predominantly all year? F****' BRILLIANT.

No wonder Goff was lost. Took away all run lanes, focused to shut down Gurley, and make the very suspect Goff (as seen very much so in the last 3-4 weeks of the season) try to beat them. Brillaint.

Or, 'the drive' that the Pats actually scored a TD on? Drawn up on sidelines by McDaniels who said they had to throw out the practiced game plan. Put in the heavy set offense (2 fb/hb, 2 TE, 1 WR tight to the line) and then spread them out to make the defense-planning run heavy blocking-go out in coverage. Then run it in that same set 3 times!!

THAT'S what I love to listen and read after a Superbowl.

Pissed as I was., the main thing I remember from Superbowl 32, when Denver beat the Packers, was Mike Shanahan talking about 'we have to neutralize LeRoy Butler.' (free ranging strong safety, who I hope makes it to the Hall of Fame-first defensive backfield player to have 20 INTs, 20 sacks. Ended with 38 INTs; so close to 40!).

But anyways, he was the guy who could obviously range all over the field with speed and strength. Shanahan figured if they could take him out of the picture, then their run game could win it for them.

Essentially, this is exactly how it played out. Dammit!!!! (I'm still so pissed about the helicopter-if only Mike Prior had gone straight through Elway!!!!)

But beautiful game planning.


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Perry on February 22, 2019, 02:53:06 PM
Hahaha, so good old Robert Kraft.
Prostitution anyone?
 ;D


Title: Re: NFL 2018
Post by: Jeff on February 22, 2019, 03:33:16 PM
Hahaha, so good old Robert Kraft.
Prostitution anyone?
 ;D

Now we know the secret!