HR Boards

MARVEL COMICS => MARVEL HEROES TEAMS & EVENTS => Topic started by: Jeff on June 14, 2016, 01:02:09 PM



Title: Civil War II
Post by: Jeff on June 14, 2016, 01:02:09 PM
I got the free Civil War II #0 issue from Comixology and I got a free Dallas Comic Con Exclusive copy of Civil War II #1. 

So my question is can you follow Civil War II without buying any of the Tie-Ins?  And if so, would it be worth picking up as it comes out (on Comixology) as opposed to waiting for it to show up in Marvel Unlimited?


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on June 14, 2016, 03:26:41 PM
I got the free Civil War II #0 issue from Comixology and I got a free Dallas Comic Con Exclusive copy of Civil War II #1. 

Sweet!

So my question is can you follow Civil War II without buying any of the Tie-Ins? 

As I have only read two of the tie-ins so far (I don't consider ANY of the "Prelude to Civil War" banners as any sort of tie-in),  and I am only going on past "events" when I say absolutely. I will be reading the X-Men and the Choosing Sides tie-ins as well as most others, but none are needed (as far as I can tell) to get the story of Civil War.
Heck, Hercules Tie-In, Civil War Gods ... something, was nothing but
a one page shot of the Celestial attacking the city and then it went back to the story that was going on in his book before it was axed.
Civil-War Spider-Man, was also just a story not needed, as it was just
Peter showing Ulysses (the Inhuman that can see in the future) around Parker Industries  ;D
I would say, honestly, if you wanted to get any side story, the best one would be the Choosing Sides mini. Everything else I feel will be just be typical non-important filler material, just to chase a buck. Choosing Sides (or whatever the name) I think will be more like the first Civil War's "Front Line" tie-in series. A series that told a little more, but nothing that you had to read at all to enjoy or understand Civil War I.

I would avoid them all, unless free of course  ;D, and get just Civil War proper ... IF that is what you are going to do.
 :)

As I will probably read most of the tie-ins, unless Dave backs out, I can relay any relevant info, if you need.  :)

And if so, would it be worth picking up as it comes out (on Comixology) as opposed to waiting for it to show up in Marvel Unlimited?

Are you asking should you buy Civil War II, right

That is a tough question for me to answer with issue #2 only hitting tomorrow.

I will say I like the way it is going and I was impressed with Tony's dialog and both he and Carol's reasoning so far. If you feel the saem and you are enjopying it, sure!  ;D It is good. But again, I can't really tell you to get it, yet. All I can tell you is I am enjoying it. Even without the money grabbing tie-ins
 :D :D


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jeff on June 14, 2016, 08:20:10 PM
Ok let me know what you think after reading issue 2.

No sense for me to buy all the tie ins since I have an MU subscription, but I may buy the main title just to stay current.

Of course, I won't do that until I actually get around to reading my freebies.  By then it may all be on MU anyway.   :D


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on June 15, 2016, 03:50:28 AM

Of course, I won't do that until I actually get around to reading my freebies. 

Oh, damn, Haha, I thought you may have already done so ... yeah, you should read them. Try and fit them into to this weeks reads. I will let ya know about issue 2 by Thursday (hopefully), but issue one should tell you if you want to follow through or not. That is the issue that will probably make or break your interest.

It made mine, as I didn't really have an interest in this ... Phillip K. Dick theme ... but after reading through the first issue, yeah I was in. Or after reading FCBD issue really, as that issue's contents happens in-between issues 0 and 1, but regardless it is very important to the story, so make sure you have that as well, regardless of which order you read them in. Either issue 0 and then FCBD, 1, 2, etc... (which is the way I kinda wish I read them in) or FCBD and then issues 0, 1, 2, etc ... (they way they were published). Either way will be fine however.
 :)
but that FCBD ... yeah you should read that.

By then it may all be on MU anyway.   :D

 :D



Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jeff on June 15, 2016, 05:01:19 AM
Oops.  My bad. I didn't get issue 0.  It was the FCBD issue.  That zero issue is $5  >:(

I'll go ahead and read FCBD and see if I want to plop down the $5 for zero.


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on June 15, 2016, 06:50:06 AM
Oops.  My bad. I didn't get issue 0.  It was the FCBD issue.  That zero issue is $5  >:(

I'll go ahead and read FCBD and see if I want to plop down the $5 for zero.

Sounds like a plan.  :)

I will have to look it over again, but I think you can go right from the FCBD issue to #1 without too much loss. The zero issue kinda sets up the event, but no action (that I can recall), just the start of the debate, a real cool court room scene with Jennifer 'She-Hulk' Walters discussing a trail with subject matter ... kind of in relation to the events about to happen and the showing of Ulysses and setting him up as the main player/catalyst.

There is also one part about Rhodey and the President, but nothing I can't just tell you if it comes to it, and it really had nothing to do with the event. Not really.

Again, it almost felt like a zero issue should be. We get so use to zero issues being no different than the first issue, but this was at least a change from that as it felt like a zero issue
 :)



Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jeff on June 15, 2016, 09:02:54 AM
Wow.  I really have idiot brain going on this week.

I knew that Zero was stuck in my head for a reason.  Here is what I actually got which is different than I listed at the beginning of this.

Comixology freebie:
Civil War II FCBD issue

Fan Expo Dallas:
Civil War II #0  w/ Fan Expo Variant cover.

Looks like I can follow Perry's original advice.  And with all the stupidity I've displayed I probably should go ahead and start buying it!


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on June 15, 2016, 11:16:25 AM
 :D :D

Well now I am patiently waiting for you to next post that you actually have Civil War I issues 3 and 4 and none of Civil War II at all.
 :D :D

Have you read them yet?


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jeff on June 15, 2016, 11:26:10 AM
:D :D

Well now I am patiently waiting for you to next post that you actually have Civil War I issues 3 and 4 and none of Civil War II at all.
 :D :D

Have you read them yet?

ROFLMAO - Not yet.  I'm in the office today and my calendar doesn't free up until the afternoon.   :D


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on June 16, 2016, 06:23:35 AM
Issue #2 (No spoiler talk)

I am not sure how I feel about this issue. I spent the first half kinda mad at a certain character for doing a certain thing, but then found out later that it ... well, ended up not truly being what I thought it was. Or at least not as bad as I thought it was. Not sure if that tainted my enjoyment or not.

I gotta say though, this art is just amazing. I mean, wow!!!! That can certainly help a lot of the smaller problems with this title.
 :D

As for action, it was kind of a step back from last issue, but as issue #3 looks to ramp it back up again, I guess that is fine. Plus, given the subject matter here, not sure all out action is what is best for this title anyway.

But all in all it was fine. This score is mostly because of the art however -

7 outta 10 ways Marvel is pushing Karnak 
:D


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on July 08, 2016, 01:20:51 PM
I will make this warning quick -

For anyone who may come across this, even though I am well aware that it may be far too late to safe anyone ...

DO NOT spend one single penny on Civil War II: Choosing Sides

That is all.
Thank you for your time


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on August 16, 2016, 05:38:52 AM
Sooooo, Bendis is saying that this 7 issue series will now be and 8 issue series as he (Bendis) needed an extra issue because... he has now wrote a better ending?

Oh boy, if this ending sucks ...  :D :D :D I don't understand how you can change and ending to a story that was pretty much planned out, supposedly set-up the MU for "YEARS TO COME"  ;) and other writers may have been planning off of, but my thinking is the ending hasn't really changed as much as how we get there. Maybe he found a way for
Captain Marvel not to look like a crazy ass person that doesn't understand basic rights.  :D She does have a movie coming out soon. She can't stay with this ideological way of thinking.




Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jimmy T on August 16, 2016, 07:37:35 PM
So....does this mini suck? That's the word I'm kinda getting from out in the interwebs....


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jeff on August 16, 2016, 07:53:21 PM
So....does this mini suck? That's the word I'm kinda getting from out in the interwebs....

I have a friend at the Cigar bar that loves it.  It's actually brought him back into comics and now he's trying everything. ( I convinced him to get MU as he was starting to buy all those back issues at full price digitally. )

Of course that's one persons opinion.


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on August 17, 2016, 06:40:39 AM
So....does this mini suck? That's the word I'm kinda getting from out in the interwebs....

I have a friend at the Cigar bar that loves it.  It's actually brought him back into comics and now he's trying everything. ( I convinced him to get MU as he was starting to buy all those back issues at full price digitally. )

Smart.  :)

Does it suck? Eh, it is what it is. Good stuff, bad stuff. Obviously a couple major deaths will bring haters, as will characters acting like they never should and I can't see how anyone would possibly be on Carol's side of this. Still, I have enjoyed a lot of it so far (and the art is just incredible!!!!) but I have also just rolled my eyes at times. But is it good? Does it suck? People love it, people hate it. My answer is honestly just another question. Does it really matter? As long as crazy people keep buying this shit, these damn yearly events, especially at the insane price point that Marvel is so nicely placing on them ... it doesn't really mater if it's good or bad.

It just like in the "Untold History of Marvel Comics" book I listened to (ha, that seems weird to type. A book I listened to). back when Marvel doubled their price just to test the market and they noticed sales didn't drop at all ... guess what. Take a guess what they are doing now? (And don't think DC is not doing it with their "only $2.99" an issue but twice a month shipping). They are testing the damn buyers again. How much can they soak out of "fans" before you finally walk the hell away.

I just can't stress enough to "comic fans", to get this to stop, you must stop. Stop F'n buying events. Stop F'n buying $5, $6 and even $7 F'n comics. I am reading through some old DC and some old Marvel right now and for $1 or even $2 on Comixology (or sent or borrowed from a friend  :D) you can sit and read a book that takes 4 times longer to read, has more events happening in the first half than three damn issues of current comics and has some of the best artists that ever picked up a pencil. It's like the old Cheech and Chong Chinese restaurant skit -
"You order shit. you eat shit"
Stop buying the shit!!!!!

*ahem*

But you would hate it anyway Jimmy ... you know it is written by Bendis.
 ;D


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on August 22, 2016, 10:24:36 AM
The Accused (one shot)

So I decided to give this "tie-in" a go as it is about an important factor in an event that happened ... in this event  ;D

Ya know the term look before you leap? Of course you do. Well all I can say is I shouldn't have even looked before I looked.  :D I got about 4 or 5 pages into this book when the dialog and horrible panel direction became so distracting to me that I had to close this up. "Nope" I thought, can't read this.

I then went to put the book down and while doing so, I caught a glimpse of the cover and the credits laid before me. Gazing at the top name all I could do was laugh, for when I saw that name it all became clear.

The Accused written by Guggenheim.

Ha. Should have known. Now I have to make sure I check The Fallen, another one-shot I had plans on reading, that ties into this tie-in  ;) before I even open the book, to make sure it is a different writer. If not, nope, not reading that either.

3 outta 10 - pages I could've made it through.
 ::)


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on December 31, 2016, 05:05:35 AM
It's over.
Things happened that make me shake my head and things happened, as they often do, to set up more stuff at Marvel. This series still makes no sense to me. I mean, I was a fan of the first Civil War even through some of the mis-characterization because of the "it is a good plausible story. It could happen" aspect, but here, with Captain Marvel ... NO F'n WAY.

Don't get me wrong, I am not mad. I read it all so if I was to be mad I should be mad at myself. I mean if I hate something why read it? Well, I can only claim "car accident" I suppose, couldn't look away, but I still can't be mad. I can only not like it. And trust me people, other than the art that was fan'freaking'tastic, this story was not enjoyable and I did not like it.

Look forward to the next event, just hopefully it will be in three ... or ten years.
 ;)


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jimmy T on January 08, 2017, 11:11:38 AM

Look forward to the next event, just hopefully it will be in three ... or ten years.
 ;)

I realized you did mean to say this with mirth and tongue in check, but all I can think of is this: when is another good one going to come? J. Hickman isn't writing for Marvel anymore. Bendis has only shown he can't deliver on the big huge events. He can't. How soon before the next event interrupts everything yet again, but in a manner that only delays getting back to the good stuff?

I realize that there are gems here and there with any event, but slamming a round character into a square plot whole just really annoys the shit out of me.

(and yes, this applies to both companies. But, seeing as how I wasn't a fan of CW I, and from what I've been continually reading of CW II, I'm going to have a hard time not having my own self fulfilling prophecy coming true.)

Perry, if you read this as only as Jimmy T's anti-Marvel rant...well, I hope you don't. I hope you can see it as me railing against poorly directed stories without a truly organic character beginnings and purpose.


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on January 09, 2017, 07:04:41 AM
I realized you did mean to say this with mirth and tongue in check, but all I can think of is this: when is another good one going to come?

Well I guess that depends on what you consider good  ;), becuase when you say stuff like this -
But, seeing as how I wasn't a fan of CW [one] ...

I'm not sure I can answer your question as that was, for me, even with the somewhat odd (off) characterization, a great ... GREAT event. It just was. So great they made a great movie around it. The plot of that event was fantastic, the story was all universe inclusive, the crossover titles mattered (for the most part) and ... and this is important ... the ramifications of that first Civil War were felt for years and years afterwards.

Yes, that event was great.  :)

As far as throwing a time-scale on a good event and "when the next one will come?" ... ha, l wish I could answer that, for more reasons than the logical ones you mentioned  :), but those are the major reasons, for sure. Hickman is gone, Bendis has not been able to write a team book to satisfy me for years, much less plan out, plot out a decent universal encompassing "Event", but there are some great writers still at Marvel. Jason Aaron, who has ... well, had plotted out Thor so perfectly (until Marvel made him postpone the "Unworthy Thor" arc) is one writer I would love to see do a company wide event. Even with his last foray into that being less than stellar (See Original Sin for details  :D)

I also think Jeff Lemire has the chops to do some interesting events if given the chance, his Bloodshot alone is worth giving him the chance, but his Moon Knight (which is AMAZING!!!) and his Old Man Logan are really well done. The only thing I would be worried about would be is he like Bendis? A writer that just blows me away when he writes solo characters, but would suffer when writer teams or huge events? He was a writer on DC's Future's End after all, but his Black Hammer is so well done as a team book, and we have only touched the surface of that, that I feel confident in his ability to do so.

Heck, even Mark Waid, who has really came back with his Champions, though admittedly not making me love Avengers, could do something. I think his knowledge of Marvel History would be a great fit when Marvel finally realizes they need to make some changes and get back to "our heroes" again.

But yes, until management stops dictating how the writers need to direct their stories, start planning properly to elimate yet another late F'n event book, none of that will matter anyway.

And as for his -
,,, and from what I've been continually reading of CW II ...

Why would you do that to yourself? Haha  ;) Such a horrible, horrible event.  :-\ I would advise eveyone to just stop hurting themselves and at best, just read the last issue, issue #7 ... oh yeah ... I mean issue #8  ::) and leave the rest alone. I would be willing to fill in any blanks you need, because I was dumb enough to read the entirety of that darn thing.

Perry, if you read this as only as Jimmy T's anti-Marvel rant...well, I hope you don't.

 :)
Not at all.

I hope you can see it as me railing against poorly directed stories without a truly organic character beginnings and purpose.

Sure. I do see that. I never had an issue with you railing against bad stories, I just took umbrage with you, in the past, for ... how do the young peeps say it?... "throwing shade one sided"  :) Slamming Marvel for every little thing while being so damn forgiving to DC for also doing stupid shit at one point in time.  ;D Now yes, it was probably not as bad as I saw it, I do realize that  ;D but it seemed at one time you would make time to come on here and blast Marvel for ... something, and then not do the same to DC. But again, I may have (read as "I am sure I did") taken things a bit too personally
 ;D ;D ;D
Although yes, the old "But DC did it better" thing was a sore point for me, sure  ;)
Only as it reminded me of the stupid "PS4 rules while the X-'BONE' sucks ass" shit you see online all the time or when I was growing up ... "Ford is 100% a better car than any Chevy". Ugh. It just seems we, society, love to fall in love with one side or the other and seem to never find value in what the other side does/says or otherwise. At least that is how I took it with you at one time. Probably a little too much so, I do say.  ;D My bad, man. All good. I'm better now
 ;D

EDIT - And of course we didn't have to wait long for one part of the question as hey, Marvel has announced its next "big event" (With Captain America) we may find out soon. Clicky HERE (https://moviepilot.com/p/Will-Captain-America-Lead-A-Secret-Empire-In-Marvels-2017-Event/4184188) for more
 :)


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jeff on January 09, 2017, 09:26:37 AM
I find this interesting as I have a friend who recently just got into reading Marvel because of Civil War II.  He keeps telling me how great it is.


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on January 09, 2017, 02:50:11 PM
I find this interesting as I have a friend who recently just got into reading Marvel because of Civil War II.  He keeps telling me how great it is.

Question, when you see this friend, is it in a hospital that requires you to sign-in first? Do you have to call ahead and make sure his electroshock is not scheduled for the same time?
 ;D ;) :)

He man, seriously, what ever floats his boat. If he is that new to comics, he will soon see the error when he reads more and more "good stuff"
 ;D

Or hey, maybe he just likes it. There is nothing ... a little ... wrong with that.
 ;D


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jeff on January 10, 2017, 11:48:01 AM
I agree - I'm just happy he's getting into the Marvel stuff.  I turned him on to Secret Wars and he loved that too.  It has prompted a lot of fun conversation as he keeps asking me questions about different characters and story-lines.  I got him to sign up for MU to help him get some good reading in.


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jimmy T on January 10, 2017, 11:39:33 PM

Why would you do that to yourself? Haha  ;) Such a horrible, horrible event.  :-\ I would advise eveyone to just stop hurting themselves and at best, just read the last issue, issue #7 ... oh yeah ... I mean issue #8  ::) and leave the rest alone. I would be willing to fill in any blanks you need, because I was dumb enough to read the entirety of that darn thing.


No kidding, as a quick aside from all of that, it seems so very telling to me that you simply say skip it all together, or just wait for the last issue.

'cuz I'll tell ya know, first issues have popped on on MU now. *sigh* Nertz


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on January 11, 2017, 03:30:52 AM
I agree - I'm just happy he's getting into the Marvel stuff.  I turned him on to Secret Wars and he loved that too.  It has prompted a lot of fun conversation as he keeps asking me questions about different characters and story-lines.  I got him to sign up for MU to help him get some good reading in.

That is fantastic, man!!!! Glad you snared another one into the fold  ;D

No kidding, as a quick aside from all of that, it seems so very telling to me that you simply say skip it all together, or just wait for the last issue.

'cuz I'll tell ya know, first issues have popped on on MU now. *sigh* Nertz

Actually ... well, no. I was going to say that Bendis didn't do too bad at first, like always (he seems to falter late in the game with these after starting strong), but there are things I just didn't like from the get go so ... no. I can't say that.

Very important things happen in this "event", that will be a part of MU (universe not unlimited  :D) and to me, that HELPS with any event as I think that should be the point. A major universe event should stay in the minds of the characters and their actions for years afterwards, but some of the stuff here ... UGH.

Of course we are also talking about a company mandate here that pushes stories ... that pushes directions as well, so not sure how much Bendis is "to blame" or how much he just tried to make the best of what Marvel wanted. IF they wanted it, which if you look at their current output ... they wanted it I think.

EDIT - And don't want you to think this was a total "nothing good here" book as that is not the case, with me at least. I did enjoy one or two things (one of those being that their will be ramifications, which I think you need, again), but ... yeah ... one or two things that I liked compared to ... ???
 :-\


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jimmy T on January 29, 2017, 08:15:29 PM
I've read issues 0, 1 & 2

I do not like what has been presented.

Tony is wrong.

Tony is wrong to attack, invade a foreign power, kidnap a person, and subject him to his testing-with abuse, on top of the taking of this person's civil liberties.

I won't get into 'Tony being written wrong' (it's a bit of a butchering to further a plot element, but it's also just a really long stretch of other things Tony has done, too <not that I've always been happy about that>)-

-but I will get into Tony being wrong because him shouting 'you had a vision to use, and went into it, and got him killed!'

WHAT F***ING SENSE DOES THAT MAKE?!!

Every day War Machine is out there doing things where he will be killed. Hell, he's been killed before, or near enough to it. Don't even put grief here, as the reason he goes off. Tony's reasoning is so bullshit dumb, but its needed to kick things ahead.

I'm not even sure why Tony was so pissed here at Carol. It's THANOS; of course you're going to try and stop him!!! That's what this planet's heroes do!! It's not like Carol knew someone was going to drunk drive 2 years from now and went and killed him in his sleep this night. She tried to stop THANOS. She wasn't trying to kill baby Hitler in his crib, she was trying to stop THANOS. What the f*** is Tony's problem?

I'll say the problem is bad narrative hook.

Perhaps this sounds like I'm mad as hell, or calling it shitty and wishing people believed me. I'm more trying to get across how perplexed I am that this was the execution of the idea of predetermination versus ever changing futures. This was the best way to do it? It just seems poor and badly thought out.


I'm just not sure of how much I'm enjoying this avenue of push for things in Marvel's future. Again, I'm not the audience, as we discussed, or as I get it, but man...what the heck is going on around there?



Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jimmy T on January 30, 2017, 08:00:04 PM
Concerning issue 3,...I will be back to discuss at great length. :-\


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jimmy T on February 01, 2017, 07:56:23 PM
Issue 3

Going back through, page by page, I’m quite irritated in how they confronted Bruce. Blaming, harsh, combative, withholding. Who the hell are Carol and Tony that Bruce has to answer to them, as if he is a child being scolded by angry parents who are yelling ‘do as I say, not as I do!’

In being fair, I’m not labeling this as bad writing, I’m saying Carol and Tony seriously misjudged how to go about starting this conversation. Mind you, yes, he’s the Hulk and all. But you don’t bring an army to Bruce Banner and expect him to stay civil and calm.

Second strike? Going through his files-in front of him-and calling him out without understanding all his research. Bad moves on the parts of the…protagonists, not on the writer. I can distinguish that, Perry. ;)

Then that bitch-rag Maria Hill goes to arrest him. ON WHAT CHARGES!!! “We have to detain you.” (again this gets into how unlawful and, well, fucking evil SHIELD is. More of that next issue!) Detain him on what grounds? Fear and paranoia? Is there a single person there that truly understands gamma radiation like Dr. Banner? (being that this is a comic, and all geniuses understand all science immediately, no matter what degree they have, possibly), but Sam Cap going ‘oh. My. God.’ And Spidey going ‘Oh, no.’ What the hell do you guys know about any of this? You just 'tldr'ed that headline! Shit, there’s how many months of research there, and Beast just got all of it? Puhleez.

Here, I may go after the writing, because the characters went ballistic in reaction, and then bammo, Bruce is dead. Ugh. What an ugh moment. Then, the beginning of more writing character assassination and pathetic blame-writing. Tony ‘I was there to stop you from doing this! It’s your fault!’ Sure, if you meant that, you wouldn’t have allowed an army to show up to talk nicely over tea.

Then the Gestapo, I mean SHIELD, declare it a federal crime scene. Under what jurisdiction? The US? Because you sure don’t follow all US laws.

Matt Murdock, painting Clint Barton as a criminal was such a damn farce of dialogue I f***ing scoffed out loud. ‘Potentially’ as a lawyer, maybe he’s painting a picture as the prosecutor, but still.

Getting back to Tony’s ‘indignation’ high road sanctimonious attitude- HE FUCKING SENT BRUCE INTO SPACE TO LIVE AND DIE OUT THERE. HE INJECTED VILLAINS WITH NANOBOTS TO CONTROL THEM TO GO AFTER HIS OWN FRIENDS AND ALLIES. That ‘next on your hit list’ line to Carol just made me choke on my tongue. Lets not forget that last issue he KIDNAPPED SOMEONE, DID ABUSE TO HIM, AFTER INVADING A FOREIGN POWER BECAUSE HE THOUGHT HE WAS ENTIRELY RIGHT AND TO HELL WITH ALL OTHERS. Accountability Tony? Look in a fucking mirror. Such nonsense writing.

In issue 4, I feel, is where so much of the narrative falls apart, because now we start talking about true philosophical overtures pitted not against free will, but poor science.

Mind you, this is good one part review, one part personal taste, and one part rant. Pick apart what you feel may actually be valid.


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jimmy T on February 04, 2017, 03:13:54 PM
Regarding #4

The continuing issues that this book weakly puts forth aren't about determinism vs free will, its determinism, or quantum theory actually, not necessarily vs profiling but actually fortune telling. Profiling doesn't allow you tell the future. It doesn't allow you to be able to tell that Thanos is going pop up in a secret laboratory and steal a cosmic sphere shard.

So, that's an issue I have with all of this. If anything, based on Ulysses' abilities, I'm on board with Carol. She is stopping future horrible events from happening. The issues I have with Tony's speech is 'the future's not written, it can't be written' shtick is that YES, he's right; which is why Carol's plans can work!! If the future isn't set, then she can change it! Why is there an issue?

Can he be right that Ulysses fear and biases, and by no neuroses could be influencing events? Sure thing. Hell, you want to do something, have him write his prophecies for a month and see how absolutely true he is. Do that.

Tony stating he acted as Dr. Doom would, and that's he okay with it, SHOULD NEVER BE OKAY. Tony deciding the ends justify the means takes him all the way back to his mistakes from first Civil War-which was him being all kinds of wrong in all kinds of manner.  But still, I don't believe in half the things he says. Perhaps thats a good writing element, that one side is not ironclad in its presentation. I just know that I don't enjoy the reading of it. Just as I dont' enjoy the reading of Carol holding this woman without any due process, indefinitely; yes, that's a witch hunt! How could she?!! Ugh .

But then, yes, more bad comic stuff "I want Tony Stark arrested immediately." Again, FOR WHAT??!! DISAGREEING WITH CAROL? WTF?!

And what's Tony doing? 'Stand down!' Stand down from what? Fighting you when you're ready to fight? Why fight? WHAT THE F***?! This makes so little sense!! It's pure nonsense!! And the GOTG come in...WHY?!! This is comics nonsense.

And by what Perry has said, and other reviews I've seen, it's only getting worse, isn't it? Sorry BMB, you just can't fully write an event. You just never have been able to do it well. I almost feel that you are just put in the front to write this for Marvel because of your name, not because you want to. It's just so poor. and sad.




Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on February 05, 2017, 06:08:16 AM
Hmmm, interesting. However, and I hope that maybe you can give me more points to ponder, but to me ...

The reason why Carol can NOT be right (Edit - In my opinion  :D ;D) is the fact she is using "possible future events" as proof or evidence that the events in question will happen. The problem with that? Beyond the human rights issues (which let's not kid ourselves, that is a MAJOR problem) She knows that there are too many variables in using "the future" to determine anything. How does she know it is "this" universe she is seeing (she certainly knows the possibility of other universes existing), How can she trust, after even two events happening, that the outcome of those events would be the same had she not interfered in the first place, how can she trust, again, after only two or three "events" that EVERY event will happen and finally she should know that the future is never ever a set in stone product.

So to me, even if you can come to terms with all things being found to be factual, that every event is in this universe, that every event will happen, that every event will go the way it is shown even if you do nothing by not placing yourself (or others) in the situation and even if you know that your interference will not make something else worse by changing the future (which you can't know)... there is still the human rights issue.
(And I can easily tie that into what is happening in the world now, but I will not do so)
 :D ;)

To me, there is just too much piled against her for her actions to be considered correct. But that's me
 :)

 :)


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jimmy T on February 07, 2017, 06:41:00 PM
In response:

For me, the American civil rights aspect is the greatest, most important aspect to consider. SHIELD does it all the time, even before #4!! They always detain who they want, for as long as they want, based on what they need to do. But, the event shown here, with Carol taking away the Wall Streeter is the first time we are shown in the comic form that the 'future' doesn't immediately happen after the vision. This 'stopping it before it can occur when we usually stop from what has happened' angle I do not like at all.

However, for my supposition, I'm taking it at face value that the future Ulysses sees all and only occurs within this Marvel universe. It's what we're led to believe, in all honesty. Because, if it wasn't, then all of the reasoning for Carol to do as she does would fly completely out the window!!!

In trusting the events...well, so far they have all (whoops, not with the Hulk!) come true. Excepting what we see in this issue. So, so far, one would have to believe in what is occurring. Now, I'd love to see more 'trust, but verify', as that was thrown out the window for the supposed Hydra banker, but I guess I'll see what more ridiculous occurs next issue.



Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on February 08, 2017, 03:44:20 AM
Well I am glad that as badly as I think of this event, that there is at least someone on the Carol side of things to make this feel more like a Civil War. All I was hearing was anti-Carol. Glad to know she has her supporters as well, to make this not just a anti-Carol story.
 :)
(Though it still feels that way to me, as I have lost all respect for that character for now  :( Thanks Marvel)




Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jimmy T on February 09, 2017, 04:29:30 PM
Well now, wait, I'm not purely siding with Carol. Stopping Modok at a site of attack, a Hydra uprising; all those are events that seem to have been prevented. Good deal.

It's this Wall Streeter that has broken things for me. And, oh yeah, deciding to arrest any one that disagrees with her. HUH?!!

Doesn't mean Tony's right, as Carol has done some good in the world. However, without a Vell Kree warrior there with Cosmic Awareness to see the paths the future may tread down based on the actions that Carol does today, in this regard, we truly can't know if the further futures Ulysses is seeing are caused by what Carol has changed.



Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on February 10, 2017, 06:04:56 AM
Read on, buddy  :)


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Wringer on February 21, 2017, 04:14:46 PM
i am finally up to CWII via MCU and was wondering...are the tie-ins critical to the events of the mini (read in order on monthly basis for it to make sense) or is it more like Pleasant hill where the mini can be read alone and the tie in just add some additional details or follow side stories.

I read #1 & 2 and its ok despite the huge error in judgement, especially hypocritical is Hank McCoy being upset with tony after he has spent the last few yrs screwing with time travel and failing to find any sort of cure for the Cloud or challenging the Inhuman's for "invading sovereign territories" (ie: lets place our floating city above a major US city, not an invasion, then blow it up releasing a major Bio-toxin into the atmosphere" but kidnapping an inhuman is beyond their limit for tolerance.


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jimmy T on February 21, 2017, 08:18:53 PM
I am not reading a single tie-in on MU whatsoever.

If the CW II happens to run through a title I'm reading -HA!, lets face it, of COURSE it is!! -THEN I read that.

But I am not touching a single other book... mostly to see if the main 8 issues can hold around the center.


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jimmy T on February 21, 2017, 08:31:28 PM
And, it's finally happened. The most important part to me concerning the 'future unfolding by Ulysses' has occurred in a different book.

All New Wolverine 11

Why?

Because of Ulysses stating he had a vision about OML killing Gabby, they go to arrest him first, and then due to the events of the confrontation and arrest, Gabby gets killed

Self fulfilling prophecy!! THIS is what I was worried about beginning to happen!! Perhaps this will also happen in CW #5, but for right now, this is the biggest moment of the branding of the event.

With the aforementioned event occurring-NO vision of Ulysses could ever be trusted again. You could never know if the future would happen...or if the event would be shaped and caused by 'fighting the future.'

For Carol to continue, if knowing and truly understanding what wrong just occurred, would make her the greatest villain of all.

I'm already disgusted by the abuse of Shield 'arrests', pre-emptive attacks on allies or people. Because, you have to consider this; in the American law system; how would you incarcerate any person arrested? They haven't done anything!! There's no law broken, no body of proof, nothing to accuse!!

Which means she's holding every one completely illegally. When would they get out? Ever? This totaltarian militant despot just decides 'you're in prison' and that's it? And the US gov't and people should be fine with that? Can you imagine if Pleasant Hill and this CW II event became utter public knowledge-which it more or less already has? It should be CW I all over again!!

I do not like where this company is going!! (6 months ago, mind you ;)


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jimmy T on March 15, 2017, 05:45:04 PM
Perry, Jeff; anything?


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Perry on March 16, 2017, 06:44:14 AM
Sorry man, saw this a couple days ago, but only had time to make a quick post to another thread.

I can only say that I agree. But I have shunned all aspects of that crap a long time ago.
 :D

Really, I just had to. For all the reason you stated.

But that is what pissed me off more is they took a character (Carol) and wiped away any redeeming value to her. She was so wrong no-one could be on her side. This was not "Civil War" it was "Carol is stupid as hell"

I just had to push that shit out of my head. 

Now as for the SHIELD stuff ... I do agree with you and what you are saying, I do, but with the titles I have been reading (or trying to read) that actual side of the Marvel Universe, or the nature of "Marvel Governent/Anti-Government/SHIELD", doesn't really come into those stories, luckily. Well, it does in Ultimates 2 a little, because of Carol (who seems kinda different now), maybe a tad in TA Hulk, but for the most part, the comics I have been trying to stay caught up on (and still failing madly) those are able to be read without all that ... crap ... being in or ruining the story. I can just forget all that shit happened and stay in my warm "each title is its own uni" reading world.
 ;D

Now I have not read, and this should prove how badly I am behind, more than a single issue of either Iron Man title (maybe I did read the second of one of them but I don't remember right now), and I am sure those two titles would certainly be more involved in what you are expressing, but I have been lucky(?) enough to be more concentrated on the titles that are a far reach to any connection to that aspect.

Maybe Sam America is more into that, but I am behind on that as well.

I have not read, not plan to, any of Carol's solo book. Who is buying that book anyway? All the fans (I forgot their name) certainly can't think the same of her so I am sure they are not truly supporting it like they were prior. Are there people that hate her or what she did and just want to know more about her thinking picking up her book? Like reading about a villain? Like me reading Thanos (or me hopefully going to read the new Kingpin and Bullseye).

Marvel just killed this character for me. Even in Ultimates I just want her gone. Go away. Bah

Man, I am sorry this is all over the place again. It seems the only time I get a chance to post in detail, I am so fired up that I have the time that I try to type and think too fast so I am all over the place.

Bottom line, I agree.
 ;D


Title: Re: Civil War II
Post by: Jeff on March 16, 2017, 11:29:49 AM
I haven't even started Civil War II yet  LOL.