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DC COMICS => DC GENERAL TOPICS => Topic started by: EmeraldWarrior420 on August 26, 2012, 10:48:21 AM



Title: The DC Multiverse
Post by: EmeraldWarrior420 on August 26, 2012, 10:48:21 AM
We have seen that the DC Multiverse does indeed exist in the DC New 52. Earth 2 and World's Finest proves that both New 52 Earth and Earth 2, at least, exists in the DC Multiverse.

So why can't all of us DC fans get what we want? Why not start a title set in the classic (and/or Post-Crisis) universe? Much like Earth 2 or All-Star Squadron back in the day. That way DC can keep alienated fans, while still bringing in new fans.

I'd be a happy DC fan if someone at DC Comics did this. Maybe an alternate JLA title, so they could fit many characters in one book from that universe, plus the name would pull more people in that might not be otherwise interested.

Hell, they could even do the annual crossover events with other Earths like the old JLA/JSA or JSA/Freedom Fighters team-ups.

Would anyone else buy something like this?


Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: Perry on August 26, 2012, 11:41:00 AM
I think they will, in time.

Right now, it has only just been over a year with all of these 'new' characters. We know very little about most of the characters we have now, much less introducing new ones by the Earth load. I am fine not seeing another Earth for a few years.


Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: EmeraldWarrior420 on August 26, 2012, 02:01:07 PM
I think they will, in time.

Right now, it has only just been over a year with all of these 'new' characters. We know very little about most of the characters we have now, much less introducing new ones by the Earth load. I am fine not seeing another Earth for a few years.

I know enough that I'm bored with most of the New 52. And that I don't think the character changes were worth it, so far at least. I also hate most of the costume changes. And I think the DC Universe is just too damn dark and gloomy for it's own good.

I know others are enjoying it, but I've seen enough. So I'd jump all over something like this. But it's nothing more than frivolous wishing.


Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: sinisteri on August 28, 2012, 09:21:40 PM
Well,

I wish frivolously with you, EmarldWarrior420. Just give me one or two books that are not just names but characters who built DC for over 50 years in their intended form.

If it is working for some, great, but not for me. I really want to know what folks are liking about the new 52. And I always find it funny that the "new" simply means retelling some of the so outdated and out of touch classic stories under a new writer's vision. Funny how the "new" feeds off the old while looking down at the the old at the same time.


Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: Perry on August 29, 2012, 07:14:16 AM
Again, I know a lot of you readers of DC are pissed at the change, but DC had to do something. They had to make this switch. They were constantly getting their butt's kicked by Marvel and were losing readers hand over fist. That is why they had to kill the Wildsorm universe, that is why they promoted the hell out of the $2.99 books ... trying something new to gain new readers. This was their shot at getting, not only their old readers back, but new readers.

Yes it sucks for the old readers of DC, but would you rather had them just go down and become like Dynamite and have only 9 titles but sell 45 covers of each to stay viable?
 :D

And besides, it has been a year and I still hear people bashing the DC titles and I have to ask ... How do you know they are bad? Because (A) if they are and you are still buying them - Win for DC. But (B) if you haven't bought any in the last 6 months, how do you know they are bad?

DC is doing right and taking it slow.


Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: EmeraldWarrior420 on August 29, 2012, 05:15:56 PM
Again, I know a lot of you readers of DC are pissed at the change, but DC had to do something. They had to make this switch. They were constantly getting their butt's kicked by Marvel and were losing readers hand over fist. That is why they had to kill the Wildsorm universe, that is why they promoted the hell out of the $2.99 books ... trying something new to gain new readers. This was their shot at getting, not only their old readers back, but new readers.

Green Lantern and Batman books were consistently high sellers and very often beating most of the Marvel books. It's wasn't at all how you're making it sound. And Wildstorm? Please. Like those books EVER sold well. They just did it to keep Jim Lee happy.

And yes, I am still buying DC books, but less than half the amount I used to. I'm pretty much ONLY buying Green Lantern books (and Earth 2) anymore, and those books were relatively unchanged other than some very minor costume tweeks. I was buying Batman: The Dark Knight, both Superman books, Captain Atom, Hawkman, and Justice League. So it's not like I didn't give it a chance.


Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: Perry on August 29, 2012, 05:38:46 PM
Yes, you gave it a chance. Sadly, the books you chose to try are pretty much the most piss poor excuse for comics I have seen. I forced myself to stay on Justice League JUST for the Shazam back-up, but I could only force myself to do that for so long and dropped it like a hot potato.

Captain Atom, Hawkman and DarkKnight had (has) terrible writing/art issues and everyone is slamming Superman as one of the worse train wrecks ever (I like seeing that as I am a Superman hater  ;D)

But there are DC books out there that are really well done.

My thing is, as you said, Batman and GL books were the high sellers for DC. And guess what, they are the only titles really NOT affected by this reboot. Why? Because they were selling. The other titles needed something.

And crap ... I got to go ... I will try and get back to this ...
 :)


Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: EmeraldWarrior420 on August 29, 2012, 05:47:36 PM
Oh, I also was buying Justice League International. I was VERY disappointed in that book, because Justice League: Generation Lost just before it was awesome.


Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: Jeff on August 29, 2012, 06:28:01 PM
Oh, I also was guying Justice League International. I was VERY disappointed in that book, because Justice League: Generation Lost just before it was awesome.

I will agree with you on that one.  I LOVED Generation Lost and thought the reboot was going to continue that greatness.  Sadly what we got was just awful.

To Perry's point there are some other good ones that started out not so much.  I dropped Aquaman after the first arc but as it turned out, I needed to stick around because the 2nd arc is really good. So good good that I went back and picked up what I missed.

Suicide Squad is good in spite of the shark guy.  Deadshot and Harley Quinn make the book.

Admittedly I dropped a lot of DC's new books but mainly because I'm getting bored with a lot of comics these days.


Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: sinisteri on August 29, 2012, 11:24:42 PM
Perry,

I appreciate you discussing the point and trying to get from where the other side is coming.

Honestly, I would like to know what you like about the NEW 52, what you feel it saved-- not just the competition with Marvel but how you feel it has helped the books or characters that have been radically changed.

Honestly, I do not see it. Wonder Woman was said to be problematic because people could not relate to her-- the new series makes her a fantasy character with lil roots with day to day society. Not seeing that problem resolved.

JL-- god help us all, and no the Sups/WW thing does not make my fanboy heart flutter.

Catwoman and Nightwing were my fav bat characters but I do not know them. Ironically, I felt and believed in the versions I saw in Dark Knight Rises. I connected with them in a way I cannot connected with the ones in books I would like to buy and support each month, but I cannot.

I skim through the books from time to time hoping something might snag me to pick em up, take em home and want to follow them, but not happening in over a year for characters I use to love.


Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: EmeraldWarrior420 on August 30, 2012, 05:09:11 PM
Perry,

I appreciate you discussing the point and trying to get from where the other side is coming.

Honestly, I would like to know what you like about the NEW 52, what you feel it saved-- not just the competition with Marvel but how you feel it has helped the books or characters that have been radically changed.

Honestly, I do not see it. Wonder Woman was said to be problematic because people could not relate to her-- the new series makes her a fantasy character with lil roots with day to day society. Not seeing that problem resolved.

JL-- god help us all, and no the Sups/WW thing does not make my fanboy heart flutter.

Catwoman and Nightwing were my fav bat characters but I do not know them. Ironically, I felt and believed in the versions I saw in Dark Knight Rises. I connected with them in a way I cannot connected with the ones in books I would like to buy and support each month, but I cannot.

I skim through the books from time to time hoping something might snag me to pick em up, take em home and want to follow them, but not happening in over a year for characters I use to love.

I didn't even put that together until you pointed it out. You're right about the family feel to the DC Universe. It had legacies and plenty of important supporting characters. The DC Universe of old did feel familial, but this one is the farthest thing from it.


Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: Perry on August 31, 2012, 08:05:51 PM
Perry,

Honestly, I would like to know what you like about the NEW 52, what you feel it saved-- not just the competition with Marvel but how you feel it has helped the books or characters that have been radically changed.

Well, for one, this new 52 got me into more DC books than ever. I have always been a Marvel Zombie and the only books I would ever buy, consistently (or at least often) was Batman (related) and Green Lantern (Related)

I have always hated Superman and never felt any connection to the ubber powered DC heroes. They always seemed TOO powerful. BORING. Loved TEEN TITANS (Wolfman/Perez) when I was a young teen, because it was written more in a Marvel style, the heroes had issues and weaknesses, but for the most part, the earlier DC was just too much balls and erections and not enough ED.
 ;D

I enjoy the heroes having somewhat human limits and being able to overcome them. I always preferred Quick Silver to Flash because Pedro was so limited on his speed.

When DC wiped out and decided to start over with this new 52, I jumped on a lot of the books to see what they were like now. Sadly, some started with talent or ideas I didn't like, but there were some that blew me away.

WONDER WOMAN is one of the best books out there. Hands down. I have tried and tries to get into her books, but this take is the perfect take for this character. I no longer buy it as I have a DC friend that does and he lets me read after he is done, but if he moves, I will be adding it to my pull in a heart beat.

Nightwing is okay. Just not a fan of the writer, but by in large it is a decent book.

Any Superman related titles I couldn't tell ya one thing about. Hate Superman and afraid they will tie in the books too much so I stay away from any title that could lead me to that putz (ALL SUPERMAN aside  ;D)

GREEN ARROW I may start reading now. Didn't like the first issue, but would like to try the new team.

Lots more.

But again, it has only been a year and things are still being worked out. I think, if you let go of the past (Think of all of this as a temporary 'FLASH POINT" story that is taking a long time to tell and  pick up a book or two and read them, give em a chance ,,,  you may like more than you think. As long as you pick up the good ones.
 ;D
(Not everything a company does is good)
 :D

I know I rambled and didn't answer some ... or most of your thoughts, but too much drink is started to hit the old head.







Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: sinisteri on September 01, 2012, 07:42:56 AM
Thank you, Perry.

You gave me some information, but I wanted you to point out what you liked about 52 giving examples of books you liked now as opposed pre-New 52.

What changes made the books more appealing is what I am most trying to understand. You are not speaking for everyone, but I am trying to understand the other perspective. You mentioned Wonder Woman is one of the best books, but you did not say what was so likeable about this take as opposed to what had come before(not couting the last storyarc with the pants in any way).

For instance, I liked that she was a strong female character with both physical strength, compassion, winning charm,  and the fact that she had her feet in both the modern world and mythological. It gave her a unique perspective in both worlds so that she was able to bring something more to the table and gave her an edge against both gods and humans.

 I like the current Wonder Woman book, but my problem as with many of the books is that you could insert a new character in the pages and tell these wonderfully different stories. If the writer and idea is so good, it could stand on its on as a new legend much like Neil Gaiman's Sandman. Instead, it seems like lazy writing to use familiar and established characters(hooking in readers based on the so often poo pooed history to tell new sometimes substandard stories with what should be totally new/original characters). The idea is that these New 52 characters have been around for a while and some of their past is just enough intact to keep their identities to sell the idea that they are in essence the same characters.


Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: sinisteri on September 01, 2012, 07:51:46 AM
Also,

I have always had a hard time understanding that characters like Superman are too powerful or not easy to relate. By definition, a comic book character is very powerful. The conflict is having powerful abilities that do not cure the world of all its ills without causing more problems even robbing human kind of the opportunity to grow and be self reliant or that power not being able to make someone love/trust/respect you. Who cannot relate to having a talent or social status that keeps them from some aspect or elements of life that he/she may want. The challenge which a successful writer turns into gold is showing the humanity of a powerful in each story and aspect of the depiction-- this is what is achieved with mythological characters since the dawn of storytelling. It can be done.

I have tried many of the books since New 52, and sadly I am not connecting with the characters. I do not know who they are. And I feel some of the writers do not know who they are either. I think because they did not know the characters they thought the answer was to "re-create" them. It makes the "writing' easier to do by mixing and matching the works of talented men before them. Do not get me wrong, characters change. However, it is better when the change is organic not forced. How many resets does DC need, and when will the next one be?


Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: sinisteri on September 01, 2012, 08:05:36 AM
Granted,

With characters having decades long history, there will be re-writes and retroactive touch ups-- but too many too fast weakens the integrity of the characters. And when you look at the bigger picture-- how many times do readers need the re-telling of coming of Brianiac or the Flash facing each of his "new but classic" rogues again and again? "Oh hi, Captain Cold, is it-- let me tangle with you to see what your abilities are...oops, slipped on ice. You freeze things. That is new(again)!"

You mentioned the New Teen Titans which is one of my favorite series. Has the new 52 Titans come close to that level of storytelling? Instead of the current group of strangers who don't seem to like each other, you had a group of friends that was a family with a few conflicts based on situations of problematic blood family issues or trying to understand/help one another. And you had the added bonus that their connections to other titles/characters/DCU proper could take them anywhere and allow the DCU to naturally and frequently step into their world and vice versa. Honestly, what is Wonder Girl if she is completely disconnected from Diana or Superboy with no ties to Superman? There is no generational legacy beyond names here.

I like Swamp Thing, Animal Man, JL Dark, WW, GL books, mostly because quite a few are fringe characters who's histories have not been too terribly altered. WIll always love WW, but she seems so alienated from DCU in her own book. Don't get current take on JL, Green Arrow, Hawkman, Suicide Squad andm uch of new DCU. And I miss the history and legacy of JSA.


Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: Perry on September 01, 2012, 09:14:39 AM
I always preferred Quick Silver to Flash because Pedro was so limited on his speed.

HAHA. Who? Man, I knew I was drunk, but jeez.
 :D

Also ... Sin, I am going to get back to you. As I said, a little too much drinking last night and you are on a roll with the typing. My brain can no handle it right now.
 ;D


Title: Re: The DC Multiverse
Post by: Perry on September 01, 2012, 09:50:07 AM
I have always had a hard time understanding that characters like Superman are too powerful or not easy to relate.

Okay, let me ask you this, would you prefer to read stories about Hercules or Zeus.

If you take the stories of Zeus, you know, without question, how the story will go. He is a god. He is so powerful that there is little room for conflict that he can't overcome rather quickly. There is no build-up. There is no danger. It's Zeus. It's a yawn story without the chance of a different outcome ... and sadly, no chance of being able to watch the struggle to overcome the situation. And I am not talking about the Zeus in movies ... I am talking about the Zeus of myth.

Hercules, on the other hand, is flawed. Sure he is strong and half god, but he is also half human. He struggles with love, power, moral conflict, ego and countless other situations. Zeus we know that in the end, he will survive, but the fun is watching the struggle. Watching him 'overcome great odds' to claim victory.

THAT is what makes the difference. It is not how the 'god' handles trying to be mortal, it is how the mortal tries to handle being god.

When I was growing up, there was nothing ... NOTHING Superpooper couldn't do. Ice breath, fast as flash, strong as anything, able to fly, x-ray vision, heat vision, invulnerability, Super hearing, super smell, memory retention, on and on and on. How could a guy this powerful face anything he couldn't over come pretty easily? He didn't because he always could. BORING.


By definition, a comic book character is very powerful.

Yes, but not omnipotent. At least not the ones that you want to read about ... or I want to read about I should say  ;D

The conflict is having powerful abilities that do not cure the world of all its ills without causing more problems even robbing human kind of the opportunity to grow and be self reliant or that power not being able to make someone love/trust/respect you.

I don't see it that way. The easy solution to that would be isolation. Like having the aforementioned Zues just stay out of the way. The conflict should be internal sometimes and the more power you have the less room for internal conflict because you can usually take care of anything bothering you.


Who cannot relate to having a talent or social status that keeps them from some aspect or elements of life that he/she may want.

No one, but it is easy to want to be the person we see on the outside. We all want to be that rock-star, or that star athlete, or that start comic artist  ;) but reading about the good parts over time just gets boring. The fun stories are the more flawed ones. The Brittany Spears going crazy and cutting off all her hair. Bottom line for me ... the less perfect the character, the more room for growth, humor, anger, sadness and dismay. More close to what humans deal with all the time. The non-perfect character.

How many resets does DC need, and when will the next one be?

If only that could be answered.  :D